A Fatal Flaw Of Jehovah's Witnesses Christology
Jesus Christ stated that the greatest demonstration of love is giving up one's own life on behalf of others (John 15:13). That is precisely what He did for us when He made atonement for our sin on the cross. Now, the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. In order to remain consistent with their theology, they must accept the idea of a creature doing a greater act of love than the Creator Himself because it was the former who laid down His own life in our place. The Trinity is the solution to this dilemma. If Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Godhead, then it is God who has made the greatest possible demonstration of love.
Comments
Soldiers fighting in WW2 gave up their lives permanently.
Therefore, the soldiers made a greater sacrifice than Jesus.
Therefore those soldiers made the greatest possible demonstration of love.
Pix
Jesus gave up his life for two days.
Soldiers fighting in WW2 gave up their lives permanently.
Therefore, the soldiers made a greater sacrifice than Jesus.
Therefore those soldiers made the greatest possible demonstration of love.
Pix
the illogic of atheists. He assumes the ordinary men ceased to exist. He assumes their consciousness stopped. He asserts Jesus went back to his life.
First, the other guys did not cease existence. They did not cease consciousness, they are existing consciously somewhere, maybe heaven. Secondly He never went back to his life as Jesus of Nazareth. Then he and them are in the same place now together and conscious.
You do not know what Jesus lost in sacrificing for us,He went to hell too,which I;m sure you will someday appreciate
Not so for an atheist. A atheist giving up his life is a far, far greater demonstration of love because he is not expecting to just go to a better place.
Pix
so you can't read? or just don't understand complex ideas like: "no?"
I said Jesus did not go on being Jesus, he went back for a few days then off to heaven forever. The men who died in WWII did not die for our sins they didn't willfully die they tried to make the others guy;s die they were not sacrificed as Christ was. If you think guys dying in war are analogous to Jesus dying on the cross you are really not much of a thinkers.
Not so for an atheist. A atheist giving up his life is a far, far greater demonstration of love because he is not expecting to just go to a better place.
show me any atheist who has ever done that,
So not much of a sacrifice.
Joe: The men who died in WWII did not die for our sins they didn't willfully die they tried to make the others guy;s die they were not sacrificed as Christ was. If you think guys dying in war are analogous to Jesus dying on the cross you are really not much of a thinkers.
They died to protect they country from the Nazis.
Are you saying no atheist lost his life fighting for his country ever?
I think your bigotry is showing.
Pix
Joe: I said Jesus did not go on being Jesus, he went back for a few days then off to heaven forever.
So not much of a sacrifice.
yow don't know that,men who died in war are in heaven so what's the sacrifice there?
Joe: The men who died in WWII did not die for our sins they didn't willfully die they tried to make the others guy;s die they were not sacrificed as Christ was. If you think guys dying in war are analogous to Jesus dying on the cross you are really not much of a thinkers.
They died to protect they country from the Nazis.
i am not saying they did not do a great thing, I admire them I love them I think they were great they did not do what Jesus did,
Are you saying no atheist lost his life fighting for his country ever?
what atheist died on the cross for my sins?
I think your bigotry is showing.
I think your childish rebellion is showing and its overshadowing your intelligence,
You think everyone who died in WW2 was a Christian?
India provided two and a half million soldiers to the British to fight in WW2, the vast majority were not Christians. Do you think the Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims who died ended up in heaven?
Joe: i am not saying they did not do a great thing, I admire them I love them I think they were great they did not do what Jesus did,
Right. Jesus came back in two days, they did not.
Joe: what atheist died on the cross for my sins?
So now it is only the great sacrifice if it is exactly what Jesus did? That is not just moving the goal posts, it is carefully placing them where you have already kicked the ball.
Pix
Joe: yow don't know that,men who died in war are in heaven so what's the sacrifice there?
You think everyone who died in WW2 was a Christian?
my statement was a parody of the way you think Jesus could not have made a sacrifice because he triumphed. There is o logic in trying to compare Jesus' total sacrifice with dying in war. In war some of the came back even.
India provided two and a half million soldiers to the British to fight in WW2, the vast majority were not Christians. Do you think the Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims who died ended up in heaven?
Christianity is a major voice in India so I don't think you can know that,you re setting up a competitor between Jesus and men who died in WWII that is absurd,they are not in competition of any kind.
Joe: i am not saying they did not do a great thing, I admire them I love them I think they were great they did not do what Jesus did,
Right. Jesus came back in two days, they did not.
so what? Look at your silly ass convoluted reasoning, they are not in competition. the men of wwII were not seeking to save humanity from sin.
Joe: what atheist died on the cross for my sins?
So now it is only the great sacrifice if it is exactly what Jesus did? That is not just moving the goal posts, it is carefully placing them where you have already kicked the ball.
If you want to compete with Jesus' sacrifice you have to shoot for the steaks he shot for.
Jesus gave up his life for two days.
Soldiers fighting in WW2 gave up their lives permanently.
that is a stupid comparison because they not in competition,they had totally different goals. Men dying in war could go to heaven if they Knew Jesus they had that chance so their sacrifice was not so great. rectification is one of the most painful deaths, so could be dying in war but it can can also be quick and relatively less painful..There is no basis for cooparison.
there is no basis for comparison because not all who went to war died those who did could have been in eternal bliss. they were not seeking to achive the same things.
Therefore, the soldiers made a greater sacrifice than Jesus.
U just showed that is bull shit, but let's assume for argument sake it is true, so what? what does that do? does that undo the atonement? does it invalidate Jesus' DEATH ON THE CROSS? WHY SHOULD TI? THEY ARE NOT IN COMPETITION,
Therefore those soldiers made the greatest possible demonstration of love.
How so?
*how many went to war because they were forced to?
*Jesus chose to do what he did it was voluntarily
*Jesus went to hell and experienced that
*we don't know how many WWII dead did that possibly none.
*Crucifixion is one of the most painful deaths
*dying in war could be painful but it could be quick
^Jesus did not go back to his former life so they are even there
what difference does it make if there are more painful sacrifices? that does not undo the love that motivated Jesus to die for our sins, nor does it make invalid the nature of Jesus' sacrifice in saving the world from sin,
Where did you get that from? Nothing I wrote, that is for sure. I only said his sacrifice was not as great as those who died permanently.
Joe: Christianity is a major voice in India so I don't think you can know that,
Given the numbers, it would be extremely improbable if all the Hindus, Siukhs and Muslims survived and only Christians died (maybe their gods protected them?). Are you really going to hang your argument of that oh-so-slim chance?
Joe: you re setting up a competitor between Jesus and men who died in WWII that is absurd,they are not in competition of any kind.
The OP sets up the competition - did you not read it? I just added the soldiers who bravely lay down their life as further competitors.
Joe: so what? Look at your silly ass convoluted reasoning, they are not in competition. the men of wwII were not seeking to save humanity from sin.
But that is not the competetion. The competition is for the greatest demonstration of love, and that is giving up one's own life on behalf of others. It is not about saving anyone from sin.
Joe: that is a stupid comparison because they not in competition,they had totally different goals. Men dying in war could go to heaven if they Knew Jesus they had that chance so their sacrifice was not so great. rectification is one of the most painful deaths, so could be dying in war but it can can also be quick and relatively less painful..There is no basis for cooparison.
This is about the demonstration of love that is sacrificing your life. For Jesus, he did that for two days. For soldiers fighting and dying for their country, they did it for ever.
Joe: there is no basis for comparison because not all who went to war died those who did could have been in eternal bliss. they were not seeking to achive the same things.
I was speaking specifically about non-Christians who did die. Sure, they were not seeking the same thing, but Jesus did not specify you have to be saving humanity from sin, only that you sacrifice your life.
Joe: U just showed that is bull shit, but let's assume for argument sake it is true, so what? what does that do? does that undo the atonement? does it invalidate Jesus' DEATH ON THE CROSS? WHY SHOULD TI? THEY ARE NOT IN COMPETITION,
Read the post, Joe. It sets it up as a competition.
Joe: How so?
Because they sacrificed their lives permanently.
Joe: what difference does it make if there are more painful sacrifices? that does not undo the love that motivated Jesus to die for our sins, nor does it make invalid the nature of Jesus' sacrifice in saving the world from sin,
Sure. But this is about the competition to see whose demonstration of love is greatest. Jesus sacrificing his life for two days, or a soldier sacrificing it permanently.
Pix
Joe: my statement was a parody of the way you think Jesus could not have made a sacrifice because he triumphed. There is o logic in trying to compare Jesus' total sacrifice with dying in war. In war some of the came back even.
Where did you get that from? Nothing I wrote, that is for sure. I only said his sacrifice was not as great as those who died permanently.
you have not answered my arguments,those that went to heaven did not die permanently. Jesus sacrifice was more painful and more important. you have not told me why it matters?
Joe: Christianity is a major voice in India so I don't think you can know that,
Given the numbers, it would be extremely improbable if all the Hindus, Siukhs and Muslims survived and only Christians died (maybe their gods protected them?). Are you really going to hang your argument of that oh-so-slim chance?
You have totally lost sight of what the argument is about here
Joe: you re setting up a competitor between Jesus and men who died in WWII that is absurd,they are not in competition of any kind.
The OP sets up the competition - did you not read it? I just added the soldiers who bravely lay down their life as further competitors.
Nothing in the op says Jesus sacrifice is greater than all others, Obviously it is because no other sacrifice offers eternal salvation dies for the sins of the world. But the OP does not say that it merely says Jesus pointed out that there is one kind of sacrifice that is greatest and that Jesus' death is in that category. He did not compare it to others.
Joe: so what? Look at your silly ass convoluted reasoning, they are not in competition. the men of wwII were not seeking to save humanity from sin.
But that is not the competetion. The competition is for the greatest demonstration of love, and that is giving up one's own life on behalf of others. It is not about saving anyone from sin.
Is it? where is that completion ever established? U see no place either in scripture or on this board where Jesus; death is compared to that of others except by you. You just twisted and distorted this argent to avoid that fact that Jesus' sacrifice is superior to all others in what it accomplished. But we were not petitioning that out but I am now thanks to you.
Joe: that is a stupid comparison because they not in competition,they had totally different goals. Men dying in war could go to heaven if they Knew Jesus they had that chance so their sacrifice was not so great. rectification is one of the most painful deaths, so could be dying in war but it can can also be quick and relatively less painful..There is no basis for cooparison.
This is about the demonstration of love that is sacrificing your life. For Jesus, he did that for two days. For soldiers fighting and dying for their country, they did it for ever.
Bull shit, stop running from truth, you are distorting what was said. We said there's a category of greatest sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice is in that category we did not say anything else like Jesus it btter tha evenry oine(although he is_
Joe: there is no basis for comparison because not all who went to war died those who did could have been in eternal bliss. they were not seeking to achive the same things.
I was speaking specifically about non-Christians who did die. Sure, they were not seeking the same thing, but Jesus did not specify you have to be saving humanity from sin, only that you sacrifice your life.
Jesus was not compromise himself to anyone else, He did;t say my sacrifice is better.He just said there;s a category of retest sacrifice.It's not about how long you stay dead but what you give up
Read the post, Joe. It sets it up as a competition.
Joe: How so?
Because they sacrificed their lives permanently.
Joe: what difference does it make if there are more painful sacrifices? that does not undo the love that motivated Jesus to die for our sins, nor does it make invalid the nature of Jesus' sacrifice in saving the world from sin,
Sure. But this is about the competition to see whose demonstration of love is greatest. Jesus sacrificing his life for two days, or a soldier sacrificing it permanently.
what competition? I said repeatability there is no compete that is your bag not ours..
if you want one then let's do sacrifice with most far reaching effects, Jesus died for the sins of the world. where is your entry?
But some did not go to heaven. There sacrifice was greater than Jesus'.
I am sure many killed in the war took longer to die than the few hours Jesus did.
Whether Jesus' death was more important is irrelevant to how great the demonstration of love it is.
Joe: You have totally lost sight of what the argument is about here
I read the original post. I doubt you have. The argument is about whose demonstrated more love, given that the greatest demonstration of love is giving up one's own life on behalf of others. Jesus did that for a couple of days. A non-christian soldier who gave his life for his country in WW2 did it permanently.
Joe: Nothing in the op says Jesus sacrifice is greater than all others,...
Read it: "they must accept the idea of a creature doing a greater act of love than the Creator Himself because it was the former who laid down His own life in our place"
The argument is founded on the claim that Jesus' sacrifice was the greatest, and therefore Jesus must be God.
Pix
Joe: you have not answered my arguments,those that went to heaven did not die permanently. Jesus sacrifice was more painful and more important. you have not told me why it matters?
But some did not go to heaven. There sacrifice was greater than Jesus'.
How so? they did not atone for anyone's sins.
I am sure many killed in the war took longer to die than the few hours Jesus did.
Your view of sacrifice is one dimensional. For you it's just the degree of pain. they saved no one's souls. Besides you do not know the pain level involved in Jesus' sacrifice. He did more than just get crucified,He took on himself the sins of the world. He preached in hell.
Whether Jesus' death was more important is irrelevant to how great the demonstration of love it is.
I suspect you have aq one dimensional measurement for love as well. Jesus did more than just get nails in his hands, he felt the separation from God of all sinners,
Joe: You have totally lost sight of what the argument is about here
I read the original post. I doubt you have. The argument is about whose demonstrated more love, given that the greatest demonstration of love is giving up one's own life on behalf of others. Jesus did that for a couple of days. A non-christian soldier who gave his life for his country in WW2 did it permanently.
Joe: Nothing in the op says Jesus sacrifice is greater than all others,...
Read it: "they must accept the idea of a creature doing a greater act of love than the Creator Himself because it was the former who laid down His own life in our place"
The argument is founded on the claim that Jesus' sacrifice was the greatest, and therefore Jesus must be God.
you measure that in very limited terms, you need a fuller understanding of all that is involved. think about that phrase "laid down His own life in our place" You think that only refers to getting spikes driven through his hands and and feet. It means he experienced the pain God frees over the sinful world and the pain all sinners fell over separation from God for eternity. Moro ever one must also include the effect of the sacrifice what it accomplished is part of it's greatness,
Joe: How so? they did not atone for anyone's sins.
How does that make it a bigger sacrifice?
I was assuming the topic was "greatest" sacrifice not "biggest." Instead of just asking how much it hurt I think measurement for great has to include what it accomplished as well. The original post said "the GREATEST demonstration of love" not the biggest.
The size of a sacrifice is the magnitude of what you give up. sacrificing a queen in chess is a bigger deal than sacrificing a rook, because a queen is a more important piece.
the issue as spelled out in op is great not big.
Pix:Giving up your life permanently is bigger than giving it up for two days because you are losing so much more.
Jesus gave up his life permanently he never again lived in Nazareth or went around etching. He wet back to heaven after a few days.
Joe: Your view of sacrifice is one dimensional. For you it's just the degree of pain.
Actually you brought up the degree of pain, not me. The size of a sacrifice is the magnitude of what you lose.
I thought were implying it.
Joe: I suspect you have a one dimensional measurement for love as well. Jesus did more than just get nails in his hands, he felt the separation from God of all sinners,
How can God feel separation from God?
Jesus was a ,an. Truly a man.He had a divine nature he was not God per se. he as a human being that's the official doctrine: truly divine and truly a man.
Joe: you measure that in very limited terms, you need a fuller understanding of all that is involved. think about that phrase "laid down His own life in our place" You think that only refers to getting spikes driven through his hands and and feet. It means he experienced the pain God feels over the sinful world and the pain all sinners feel over separation from God for eternity. Moreover every one must also include the effect of the sacrifice what it accomplished is part of it's greatness,
saying "from himself" shows you have an inadequate understanding of Trinitarian theology. There are three persomna in the God head. So Jesus' self is the son not the father. He was not separate from himself.Official doctrine says Jesus' human nature was not blotted out by his divine nature. he was a man he knew what it was like to be a man.
Hindus and Muslims who gave up their lives went on to experience sepatraion from Jesus for eternity. An infinite amount of suffering.
Romans 2:6-16 New International Version (NIV)
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Further more, Jesus is eternal, so has an infinite time of not suffering. The Hindu soldier was on earth a short time before sacrificing himself.
15 "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."