Atheist Reduction of Knowledge to Science

 photo schweitzer.jpg
Albert Schweitzer (1875-1965)
Foresaw the death of civilization


The problem is that among the forces gathered under the rubric “scientism” is a movement that seeks the abolition of humanity, that movement is “transhumanism.” In his article Lawler writes of how Wieseltier exposed Scientism as the major force seeking to destroy the arts and humanities and the crucial reasons why we must not allow this to happen. He speaks of transhumanism:

No one can deny, for example, that the movement known as transhumanism aims at “the abolition of man,” at the overcoming of the distinction between man and machine on pretty much the machine’s terms. Every competent scientist and humanist knows it will never achieve its goal, as Marxism never achieved anything like the “communism as the end of history” Marx fancifully described. But humanists are right to fear what can be lost on an ideological mission impossible.[1]

In fairness to transhumanists they see themselves as seeking to enhance human intellectual abilities. They point to the age old desire to mirror human life in after life as a wish for continuance; they also point to renaissance humanist classics such as Pico della Mirandola’s Oration on the Dignity of Man where he says “it will be in your power to descend to the lower, brutish forms of life; you will be able, through your own decision, to rise again to the superior orders whose life is divine.”[2] So they are not totally insensitive to humanist standards. Yet we know Picco was not a transhumanist. Bostrom begins reckoning their history from the 1920s (after trances his kindred spirits form caveman days to the Nietzsche) British biochemist J.B.S. Haldane published the essay Daedalous; or, Science and the future. That essay argued for the benefit of controlling our own genetics.[3] The term “transhuman” may have first been used by James Hughes in this 2004 work Citizen Cyborg: Why Democratic Societies Must Respond to the Redesigned Human of the Future.[4]
               Among the topics engaged by transhumanism we find “radical extension of human health-span, eradication of disease, elimination of unnecessary suffering, and augmentation of human intellectual, physical, and emotional capacities.[5] The list goes on with space colonization and the possibility of creating superintelligent machines, along with other potential developments that could profoundly alter the human condition.[6]  But what is the price for these “improvements?”

Transhumanists view human nature as a work-in-progress, a half-baked beginning that we can learn to remold in desirable ways. Current humanity need not be the endpoint of evolution. Transhumanists hope that by responsible use of science, technology, and other rational means we shall eventually manage to become posthuman, beings with vastly greater capacities than present human beings have.[7]

Essentially they are the “Borg,” from Star Trek the Next Generation. The Borg were the race of biological being augmented by machines that sought total domination of the universe.[8] They do actually advocate all assortments of augmentation for intellectual capability and bodily limitations. Their greatest value is what Bostrom calls “the post human relam.”[9] Looking to end humanity and move beyond it. To soften the blow they talk about how they share the values of humanism, but humaists want to prolong humanity so that the value will be consistent, the transhumanists want to end humanity and somehow believe the values will remain consistent. Leslie Fain, writing for Catholic World Report, finds that they are going to enhance everything from genetic life span to physical speed, they will become a new species. “Transhumanists, in general, aren’t too worried about this,” she quotes  Michael Cook, editor of MercatorNet,
“Their future will divide homo sapiens into two sub-species, the gen-poor (genetically poor) and the gen-rich. To me, it’s a bit like the ghastly scenario envisaged by H.G. Wells in The Time Machine—a world divided into the Eloi and the Morlochs.”
The transhumanism narrative is becoming more mainstream. Pop culture references and commercials (such as this one from Verizon) hyping men and women becoming “one” with their latest technological toys abound; last year an Italian transhumanist was elected to parliament.[10]
With this hyper technology augmenting a new species and moving beyond the old humanity, what’s going to lead them beyond the old sin nature? What’s going to assure that we wont wind up with a have-augmentation and Have-not augmentation culture?
            Transhumanism has not only bonded with atheism but produced a sort of fundamentalist segment. Zoltan Istavon, in huff post, who proclaims that “I am an atheist therefore I am a transhumanist.”

Sometime in the next decade, the number of worldwide godless people -- atheists, agnostics, and those unaffiliated with religion -- is likely to break through the billion-person mark. Many in this massive group already champion reason, defend science, welcome radical technologies, and implicitly trust and embrace modern medicine. They are, indeed, already transhumanists. Yet many of them don't know it because they haven't thought much about it. However, that is about to change. A transformative cultural storm comprised of radical life improving technologies is set to blow in soon.[11]

He is assuming that all non-affiliated are atheists, which is a mistaken assumption. These guys believe in reason that means none us old fashioned humans who believe in God believe in reason. We stupid old Christians don’t trust medicine. If this radical cultural storm waves the flag of destruction of humanity in this way as a badge of commitment to atheist ideology humanity is truly in trouble. The transhmanists are part of the scientistic ideology because they have come to accept the notion that science is the only form of knowledge and all value and truth must be shaped around that.
            The dangers of scientism and the loss of humanity have been lurking over modernity for a long time. These things go way back to the nineteenth century. What we see emerging today as the perils brought on by scientism is just the modern outcome of trends that were engaged by Albert Schweitzer as early as 1900. Schweitzer is all but forgotten today. He’s mainly remembered as a great humanitarian who went to Africa to nurse the poor. In the early part of the twentieth century and up to the 1960s he was given huge respect one of the most profoundly brilliant and great men of human history. Schweitzer had four brilliant careers going at the same time. He was a theologian, philosopher, Bible Scholar and concert musician. In addition to all that he built organs. After having achieved greatness with his book Quest of the Historical Jesus[12] he went to medical school and became a doctor. Then he went to Africa and spent his life nursing the poorest of the poor. One thing he did not do even in leaving civilization was to give up on civilization. He wrote one of the first philosophies of civilization and was one of the first philosophers to seriously argue for animal rights. As early as 1900 Schweitzer already argued that civilization was dead and we lived in barbarism. The reason, because civilization is more than just indoor plumbing and modern inventions it is an ideal about the quality of life in affording the individual purist of his/her cherished goals. Yet modern life negates the individual and reduces ideals and personal concepts of freedom to matters of taste and eccentricity. Schweitzer identified that process by which this reduction takes place.[13] The forces that Schweitzer traces as the collapse of civilization may well have culminated in World War I.
           Schweitzer anticipated the work of Karl Jaspers, C. Wright Mills and Herbert Marcuse, thinkers who flourished five decades after he began his thinking on civilization. Karl Jaspers reflected upon the end of Western civilization in Man In The Modern Age, likening it to the end of Hellenism before the dark ages.[14] For Jaspers, the current phase in modernity (the 1920s) marked the turning point from human pursuits such as discursive reasoning, thought, understanding, and artistic production, to the dominance of a highly organized super-structure based upon reducing content to "technique." Art becomes "mere amusement and pleasure (instead of an emblem of transcendence), science becomes mere concern for technical utility (instead of the satisfaction of a primary will to know).[15] He warned that the growing tendency to "wrap the world in apparatus," the building of a giant inter-connected infrastructure based entirely on calculation, would have a deleterious effect upon humanity. According to Jaspers, society faces the extinction of those qualities and aspirations which have always defined humanity, such as rational discourse and ethical norms. These warnings seem quaint when one considers that they were made before regular air travel in the days of radio. It may be that at each stage in technical development, society becomes more habituated to technique, closed in a technological womb that grows ever more content with closed possibilities for qualitative change. The contemporary litany of dangers, ecological destruction of the planet, the failure of the educational system, growing violence, and governmental control, should bare out the realization that society is complacent in the face of growing peril. Jasper's notion that discursive reasoning was being replaced by technique anticipates the work of C. Wright Mills in the 1950s.
            Mills was a sociologist at Columbia University in New York. He is best known for his work The Power Elite.[16] It is from that work that we take the popular phrase of the 1960s, “military industrial complex.” In The Sociological Imagination[17] he explodes the illusions by which the power elite cover their own lack of understanding. His message there is that not only does the system run over the individual but even those who are in charge of it are dragged along by its momentum and don’t really know where they are going. Mills was one of the first thinkers to use the term "post-modern" (which he hyphenated). For Mills, writing in the '50s, modernity had already passed away, post-modernity had dawned. "The ideological mark...[of the post-modern epoch] --that which sets it apart from the modern age-- is that the ideas of freedom and of reason have become moot; that increased rationality may not be assumed to make for increased freedom."[18] As with Schweitzer, Mills reflects that the technological structure separates people from control over or reflection upon the ends of their lives. "Caught in the everyday milieux of their limited lives, ordinary people cannot reason about the greater structures both rational and irrational of which their milieu are subordinate parts."[19] (168).

The individual learns not to reason, but to rationalize the goals and ends of life, and his or her position in the overall scheme of things. Given...the ascendant trend of rationalization, the individual 'does what he can.' He gears his aspirations and his work to the situation he is in and from which he can find no way out. In due course he does not seek a way out: he adapts. That part of his life which is left over from work he uses to play, to consume, to have fun. Yet this sphere of consumption is also being rationalized. Alienated from production, from work, he is also alienated from consumption, from genuine leisure. This adaptation of the individual and its effects upon his milieux and self results not only in the loss of his chance, but in due course of his capacity and will to reason; it also affects his chances and his capacity to act as a free [person]. Indeed, neither the value of freedom nor of reason, it would seem, are known to him.[20]

The end result, according to Mills, is that society becomes filled with "cheerful robots," those who obey the programming of technique and cannot seek alternatives.[21] Mills charged that the social sciences help to further the aims and methods of technique, hiding behind the " scientific objectivity," unwilling to mount any critique. Mills anticipates Herbert Marcuse's work, written in 1964, One-Dimensional Man.


  photo GHMC_zps294ecee6.jpg
Herbert Marcuse (1898-1979)
 warned of rise of one-dimensional 
man

            Herbert Marcuse (July 19, 1898 – July 29, 1979) was a German academic who fled to America to avoid the Nazis in the 30s. He worked for the OAS during the war and latter become the major intellectual powerhouse behind the New Left of the 1960s. He was based in San Diego where the taught, Ronald Reagan tried to have his Doctorate revoked to silence his criticisms of the war and the establishment. He was a Marxist, some say Neo-Marxist he was critical of Stalin and called a revisionist by Stalinists. Marcuse was best known for his seminal work One-Dimensional Man (1964), one of the greatest books of the era and one of primary importance for the century. In One-Dimensional Man, Marcuse argues that affluent capitalist society has been good at providing primary needs to a mass population (despite continuing poverty for some) and it has created a bourgeois society that perpetuates false needs. The American worker has bought into his place in the capitalist order as a cog in the machine, or a bit of overhead for the owners of the means of production, because in exchange will continue to supply the false needs upon which he has become admitted; that is the material trammels of an affluent society.

...The irresistible output of the entertainment and information industry carry with them prescribed attitudes and habits...The products indoctrinate and manipulate; they promote a false consciousness which is immune against falsehood. And as these beneficial products have become available to more individuals, in more social classes, the indoctrination they carry ceases to be publicity; it becomes a way of life. It is a good way of life' much better than before and as a good way of life, it militates against qualitative change. Thus emerges a pattern of one-dimensional thought and behavior, in which ideas, aspirations, and objectives that, by their content, transcend the established universe of discourse and action are either repelled or reduced to terms of this [social-political] universe. They are re-defined by the rationality of the given system and of its quantitative extension.[22] (12).

The prognosis for one-dimensional man doesn’t end with just supporting capitalism as the basis of false needs. The whole concept of being a thinking person who lives in a society in which thinking people can determine their own lives is called into question and in fact done away with because the concept of freedom is illusory and not scientific. The scientistic crowd is telling us that freedom is a trick. The issues of one-dimensional man don’t stop Marxism because there is more to power than just capital vs labor, or capitalism vs. Marxism. Lurking behind the accumulation of false needs (technological version of bread and circuses) is operational thinking. This is what Marcuse means by "quantitative extension of the given system" (quotation above). " The trend [one-dimensional consumer society] may be related to a development in scientific method: operationalism in the physical, behaviorism in the social sciences. The common feature is a total empiricism in the treatment of concepts; their meaning is restricted to the representation of particular operations and behavior...In general, we mean by a concept nothing more than a set of operations...a positivism which, in its denial of the transcending elements of reason, forms the academic counterpart to the socially required behavior."[23] The positivist and reductionist tendencies of contemporary scientific thought, which props up the technostructure and furnishes it with "empirical proof," works to eliminate all concepts that cannot be quantified, and therefore, eventually ”commodified.”
            Stanly Aronowitz wrote Science as Power, in which he argues two things: power is possessed by a process of legitimating, and science has lent itself to that legitimating at the expense of all other forms of truth.[24] In other words power is not merely taken by a group or an institution but it is built through a process of self legitimating moves. That process is part of the means by which modern science procures funding and perpetuates itself in modern society; by being of use to power through lending itself to the development of the means of power. We see this explicitly through the military but more subtly through industry and the development of technology, the status of scientific funding in the university and so on. In lending itself to power as an enforcement mechanism science subsumes other views and other concepts of truth. This process is inherent since science has always provided a certain aspect of truth in revealing the mechanism through which the natural world functions. Apart form the cultural currying of power, Aronowitz finds, science has an intrinsic power in its conflation of truth and knowledge. “Devising a method of proving the validity of propositions about objects taken as external to the knower has become identical with what we mean by ‘truth.’” [25] In other words science purports to tell us how the physical world stacks up and wont allow any other method to introduce other kinds of truth that it would consider authoritative, that becomes all there is in the world, the physical set up that science can study and quantify. The process by which modern though came to understand itself as its own object, from Plato’s observation of truth as self representing, to Hegel’s notion that consciousness takes itself as its own object, is done away by modern science. [26] Perhaps that’s why atheists have such abhorrence for the subjective. We can’t trust our own perceptions we can only trust that which is produced by the scientific method. The problem is so much of modern science is not procured through the process of empirical verification that is the hallmark of modern science, but must be reached though calculation, in terms of modern quantum theory for example. Then truth comes to be a rubber stamp placed upon “truth” by science. As Aronowitz points out, “Science is truth, and can for this reason represent itself by means of its procedures…self criticism of science is conducted within the boundaries of its own normative structures.”[27]
            The thinkers from Schweitzer to Marcuse and Aronowitz they are all building on the indicators of civilization in decay that Schweitzer originally saw. By the time we get to the end of the twentieth century they are so far gone one dimensional man is established. We are now working on moving from one-dimensional to cheerful robot. There’s a snowball relationship in that the scientistic mentality creates the situation then feeds off of it. Knowledge is reduced to one thing, science, then that one thing is transmogrified from knowledge to technique, or illusion of technique. Finally humanity itself is displaced as freedom is reduced to just anther false need. That is to say freedom becomes confused with the products one buys and with the process of choosing products. The concept of freedom itself is ratcheted down from a personal philosophical understanding of the goals and ends of one’s life to purchasing power to obedience. The real discourse becomes closed around the one possibility left to us, which is how best to obey. When the only form of knowledge is science knowledge of freedom must disappear, there is no freedom in science. The concept of freedom requires a substantial conceptual background to cover all the bases. We have to understand the parameters of freedom, the possibilities, the impediments to freedom, balancing freedom against responsibility and so on. When the only form of knowledge is about the facts of nature and how they work there’s no room for an abstraction like ‘possible freedom.’

Separation from God.

            For those of us who feel we know the reality of God in our lives, this is a great harm. It would rob those who don’t know that reality of the ability to ever learn. Reduction of knowledge to only scientific knowledge, ala the ideological administration of scientism, robs us of knowing God because it reduces religious experience to the level of the “subjective” the emotional, these are greatly things to be avoided in the ideology of scientism. Scienstism portrays itself as rational and objective it places all that does not bow before it in the category of the irrational and the subjective. We have already seen the way new atheism rationalizes scientific protocols to manipulate “God does not exist” into a scientific fact, via Austin Cline (see above FN 7).  To reprise that statement:
"this alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful." [28]
But that’s just circular reasoning because it assumes at the outset that since there is no argument that is deemed acceptable scientifically, there can be no warrant for belief in God. As long as the only form of knowledge is science then the only valid argument is scientific. While there are valid scientifically based arguments for God (see chapters nine and ten) there is no “fact” accepted in science such that “God exists.” Therefore, any argument for the existence of God is met with “that’s disproved before we start because it’s not science.” Cutting off other forms of knowledge the gate keepers of scientific acuity merely denounce warrant for belief based upon their own prejudices. Based upon that assumption it is deemed “unscientific” to argue for such a warrant. In fact what I’m saying is that scientists are human and they embody the same prejudices as anyone. That has to be ignored when the only from of knowledge is science because the human factor is not part of the scientific process. Thus belief in God is removed from reality by a series of protocols that amount to nothing more than jumped up ideology.

God belief and the realm of discourse

            Belief in God is more than just belief in an entity. It’s also the basis for rejecting the closed realm of discourse. This is true for two reasons, (1) because as the Transcendental signified God sets in motion the basic first principles that serve as premises of logic. God determines the basis upon which truth is held, since God alone is the ultimate creator then God alone is the final assigner of meaning. Thus the realm of discourse can never be truly closed by temporal power or human concerns. (2) Because in a practical sense the open nature of discourse depends to a great deal upon the understanding of technique. When we come to vest the illusion of technique with all power and all logic then we vest it with all right. That’s when we start thinking its right to pursue actions merely because we have the physical prowess to do so. As long as God is understood as the orbiter of truth no human technique affords one the efficacy to close the realm of discourse around any one social project. An example of what I’m talking about is the case of a worker in stem cell research who was injured by the technology but was denied direct medical care. “I was denied directed medical care for exposures from dangerous embryonic stem technologies incurred while at work. Unbelievably, I was denied under the premise that ‘trade secrets’ supersede a worker’s right to specific exposure information. Welcome to the embryonic stem cell world, a world of legal quagmire where human rights and public rights are slated toward the chopping block.”[29]

In fact, the public has been fooled. The embryonic stem cell research industry is far from the altruistic persona it has painted itself to be. Rather, embryonic stem cell research is about big money, first and foremost. It is about securing a position of power within the economic and legal mainstream of the American public. That is why biotech worker’s rights regarding safety and healthcare have been denied. That is why, unfortunately, the public’s right will be denied too.

And the media has not helped. The media has purposely turned the human embryonic stem cell debate into a polarized “religion versus science” contest.

But issues lying in-between those two polarities contain much of the tainted meat that can negatively impact the public toward human rights. These concerns get no media attention. The public remains ignorant. In fact, the public lacks an understanding of the legal, social and cultural effects that could negatively impact them as advanced technologies move forward.[30]

What’s the link from science as the only form of knowledge and this case? The realm of discourse is closed around the illusion of technique. Ethical consideration disappear because we have the technology we know how to do it, it’s sanctioned by the thinking experts who make decisions for us. These are the guys that know stuff, there’s no knowledge outside of science, these are scientists so they must know all about ethics and if they do can do it, must be good to do.

tune in Monday for 3d and final part in
"Atheist Reduction of Knowledge to Science."

 sources


[1] Ibid.
[2] Picco della Mirandola, Oration on the Dignity of man, quoted in Nick Bostrom, A History of Transhumanist Though. Pdf  http://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/history.pdf  accessed 1/1/14originally published in The Journal of Evolution and Technology, vol 14, issue 1, April 2005., 2.
Bostrom is a philosopher who teaches at Oxford and the edition of Mirandola used is:Chicago, Gateway Editions  1956.
[3] Ibid, 5.
[4] James Hughes, Citizen Cyborg: Why Democratic Societies Must Respond to the Redesigned Human of the Future. Cambridge Mass: West View Press, 2004, 155
Huges is a sociologist and bioethicist. He’s been involved in the transhumaist movement since before 2004, he was ordained a Buddhist monk in the 80s.
[5] Nick Bostrom, “Ethical Issues for the 21st  Century,” Philosophical Documentation Center Press, Ed. Frederick Adams,  2003, 3-14.
[6] Ibid.
[7] Ibid., 4.
[8] find
[9] Bostrom, Ethical Issues..Op Cit., 8.
[10] Leslie Fain, “The Surprising spread and Cultural Impact of Transhumanism.” Catholic World Report, Oct 3, (2013). Blong, online http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2616/the_surprising_spread_and_cultural_impact_of_transhumanism.aspx#.UsbEtvsvxsF   accessed 1/3/14.
[11] Zoltan Istvan, “I am an Atheist Therefore I am a Transhumaist.” Huff Post The Blog, 12/5/13. on line
Istvan Is a self proclaimed “visionary.”
[12] Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus: A Critical Study of Its Progress from Reimarus to Wrede. New York: MacMillan, originally 1906, MacMillan paperbacks 1961, eighth printing, 1973.
[13] J.L. Hinman, “Albert Schweitzer On The Death of Civilization.” Negations: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Social Criticism. No 3. (Winter 1998). On line copy,  http://www.datawranglers.com/negations/ accessed 1/4/14.
See also: Albert Schweitzer, The Philosophy of Civilization. Translated C.T. Campion, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books. 1980 (original German pulbication 1923). The work is divided into two sections, the "Decay and Restoration of Civilization," and "Ethics and Civilization." Unwin has published the first section as an independent volume entitled The Decay and Restoration of Civilization.
[14] Jaspers, Karl. Man In The Modern Age. New York: Doubleday, 1957, 20. 
[15] Ibid., 137.
[16] C Wright Mills, the Power Elite. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1956. No page given.
[17] C. Wright Mills, The Sociological Imagination. New York, London: Oxford University Press, 1967 (originally 1959)
[18] Ibid, 167
[19] Ibid., 168
[20] Ibid., 170
[21] Ibid., 171
[22] Herbert Marcuse, One-Dimensional Man: Studies in the Ideology of Advanced Industrial Soceity. Boston: Beacon Press, 1964, 12.
[23] Ibid.
[24] Stanley Aronowitz, Science as Power: Discourse and Ideology In Modern Society. Minneapolis Minnesota: University of Minnesota Press, 1988, ix.
Stanley Aronotwitz is professor of Sociology and cultural studies at CUNY Graduate Center, New York. He is a long time cultural critic and political activist.
[25] Ibid., vii.
[26] Ibid.
[27] Ibid., viii the idea about quantum physics he states on page ix
[28] Austin Cline, “Scientifically God Does Not Exist: Science allows us to say God Does not Exist, there is role for God in science, no explanation that God can provide.” About.com, Agnosticism/Atehism. Online publication: http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsagainstgod/a/GodScience.htm  accessed 12/27/13.
[29] Becky A. McClain, “Embryonic Stem Cell Research Funding Threatens Human Rights and Public Interests.” Watchdog on Science. On line resource. Septermber 14, (2010). http://watchdogonscience.blogspot.fr/2010/09/embryonic-stem-cell-research-funding.html   
accessed. 1/15/14.
[30] Ibid.










Comments

The Pixie said…
Worth pointing out that many atheists are not transhumanist, and conflating the two only makes you look ignorant.

Joe: In his article Lawler writes of how Wieseltier exposed Scientism as the major force seeking to destroy the arts and humanities and the crucial reasons why we must not allow this to happen.

I agree that we should stand against that form of scientism.

Wieseltier: No one can deny, for example, that the movement known as transhumanism aims at “the abolition of man,” at the overcoming of the distinction between man and machine on pretty much the machine’s terms.

Interesting that he says on "the machine’s terms". What machine is demanding these terms exactly?

Back to reality, and it is man that is dictating the terms.

Joe: ...the transhumanists want to end humanity...

No, Joe, they really do not. They want to change humanity to something they believe to be better. If you are going to misrepresent them so badly, there is not much point reading the rest of your article.

1 – 1 of 1
Blogger The Pixie said...
Worth pointing out that many atheists are not transhumanist, and conflating the two only makes you look ignorant.

Apparently you think that just stalking about it is conflating. where do I ever conflate the two?

Joe: In his article Lawler writes of how Wieseltier exposed Scientism as the major force seeking to destroy the arts and humanities and the crucial reasons why we must not allow this to happen.

I agree that we should stand against that form of scientism.

thank you!

Wieseltier: No one can deny, for example, that the movement known as transhumanism aims at “the abolition of man,” at the overcoming of the distinction between man and machine on pretty much the machine’s terms.

Interesting that he says on "the machine’s terms". What machine is demanding these terms exactly?

They identify with the machines,

Back to reality, and it is man that is dictating the terms.


not the issue, the issue is which set of humans.


Joe: ...the transhumanists want to end humanity...

No, Joe, they really do not. They want to change humanity to something they believe to be better. If you are going to misrepresent them so badly, there is not much point reading the rest of your article.


they do what to end humanity and they say they do. That is what "trans" means, "makimng humanity better;Means it's not humanity anymore, part of being human is being flawed,

this thing is about a lot more than just transhumanism,read the whole thing.
The Pixie said…
Joe: Apparently you think that just stalking about it is conflating. where do I ever conflate the two?

Well the title is "Atheist Reduction of Knowledge to Science", but you are objecting to transhumanists, so pretty much the whole thing is a conflation of the two. Kind of disturbing you cannot see it.

Joe: They identify with the machines,

Do you think they are machines? No. It is clearly humans dictating the terms.

Joe: not the issue, the issue is which set of humans.

So do not obfuscate the issue by saying machines!

Joe: they do what to end humanity and they say they do. That is what "trans" means, "makimng humanity better;Means it's not humanity anymore,...

So if I make do some home improvement to make my house better, then it is no longer a house?

Joe: ... part of being human is being flawed,

Interesting... A lot of Christians say Jesus was fully man when he was on Earth. Given he was perfect, and so not flawed, I suppose you disagree.

Would you accept transhumanism if they kept some minor flaws? That would mean they were still human, right?
The Pixie said…
Joe: The dangers of scientism and the loss of humanity have been lurking over modernity for a long time. These things go way back to the nineteenth century.

Sounds a lot like the imminent demise of Darwinism, which goes back to a similar time. And then there are those convinced the apocalypse is any time now; that one goes back to Jesus.

See, when people have been predicting doom for so long, it looses all impact.

Joe: As early as 1900 Schweitzer already argued that civilization was dead and we lived in barbarism

So it has already happened? Nothing we can do to stop something that happened more than a century ago.

Joe: The reason, because civilization is more than just indoor plumbing and modern inventions it is an ideal about the quality of life in affording the individual purist of his/her cherished goals.

How are you measuring quality of life here? I am curious against what standard people in the eighteenth century had a better quality of life. Child labour was prevalent, as was cholera, smallpox and numerous other diseases that are rare or nonexistent today, infant morality was high, toilets were rare, education minimal, cities were full of smoke.

Sure, a tiny minority lived in luxury, with teams of maids and butlers to serve them. But I would suggest that most people at that time had very hard lives.

Marcuse: The irresistible output of the entertainment and information industry carry with them prescribed attitudes and habits...The products indoctrinate and manipulate; they promote a false consciousness which is immune against falsehood. And as these beneficial products have become available to more individuals, in more social classes, the indoctrination they carry ceases to be publicity; it becomes a way of life.

Sounds like organised religion!

Joe: Perhaps that’s why atheists have such abhorrence for the subjective. We can’t trust our own perceptions we can only trust that which is produced by the scientific method.

Can you quote an atheist saying that?

Didn't think so. Another straw man.

Joe: The problem is so much of modern science is not procured through the process of empirical verification that is the hallmark of modern science, but must be reached though calculation, in terms of modern quantum theory for example. Then truth comes to be a rubber stamp placed upon “truth” by science.

This is just nonsense. Those calculations are confirmed through empirical verification before becoming accepted as science.

Blogger The Pixie said...
Joe: Apparently you think that just stalking about it is conflating. where do I ever conflate the two?

Well the title is "Atheist Reduction of Knowledge to Science", but you are objecting to transhumanists, so pretty much the whole thing is a conflation of the two. Kind of disturbing you cannot see it.

It's objecting to a lot of things you just quite reading after the first couple of paragraphs

Joe: They identify with the machines,

Do you think they are machines? No. It is clearly humans dictating the terms.

they identify with machines, people do better when they understand themselves as human. identifying with machines is a way of dehumanizing others,

Joe: not the issue, the issue is which set of humans.

So do not obfuscate the issue by saying machines!

THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES WITH MACHINES. They say being human human is obsolete,

Joe: they do what to end humanity and they say they do. That is what "trans" means, "makimng humanity better;Means it's not humanity anymore,...

So if I make do some home improvement to make my house better, then it is no longer a house?

they are not just effecting themselves and no one else,(house decorating analogy is not valid, it;s talking over all houses)they are calling for the extinction of me, the for the elimination of all things I love

Joe: ... part of being human is being flawed,

Interesting... A lot of Christians say Jesus was fully man when he was on Earth. Given he was perfect, and so not flawed, I suppose you disagree.

Jesus does not represent an evolutionary step inhumanity, his humanity was truly human not transitory. God's grace does not offer us any sort of trans-human augmentation

Would you accept transhumanism if they kept some minor flaws? That would mean they were still human, right?

the problem is what hey will dis value in the name of evolutionary progress,

5/21/2018 03:15:00 AM Delete
Joe: The problem is so much of modern science is not procured through the process of empirical verification that is the hallmark of modern science, but must be reached though calculation, in terms of modern quantum theory for example. Then truth comes to be a rubber stamp placed upon “truth” by science.

PXThis is just nonsense. Those calculations are confirmed through empirical verification before becoming accepted as science.

you have demonstrated that attitude the whole way through this confirmation. The essence of your approach--that my argument can't tell us anything if it's not producing scientific research--is exactly the attitude I am attacking in this paper,
im-skeptical said…
Apparently you think that just stalking about it is conflating. where do I ever conflate the two?
- I agree that you seem to be conflating atheism with transhumanism. The title of the post makes it sound as if you are talking about atheists in general. Then you immediately launch into a discourse on transhumanism, without distinguishing between them. You even call it "a badge of commitment to atheist ideology". Anyone would think that you are conflating them. For the record, (1) atheism is NOT an ideology, and (2) most atheists are NOT transhumanists.


The dangers of scientism and the loss of humanity have been lurking over modernity for a long time.
- Again I agree that this form of scientism (if it actually is a real thing) is not something that I or most atheists would subscribe to. Yet, you raise the specter of this supposed de-humanization over and over again, against people who hold no such attitudes (like Jerry Coyne, for example). You are creating a straw man, and using it as a weapon against atheists. I have pointed this out to you repeatedly, so why do you keep repeating it? If you want to criticize Zoltan Istvan, why don't you make it clear that he doesn't represent most atheists?

Blogger im-skeptical said...
JoeApparently you think that just stalking about it is conflating. where do I ever conflate the two?

-Skep I agree that you seem to be conflating atheism with transhumanism. The title of the post makes it sound as if you are talking about atheists in general.

atheists in general would include TH's that's why I said "among them are..." which obviously is not conflating;so I clearly delineated,typical atheist reading comprehension problems.


Then you immediately launch into a discourse on transhumanism, without distinguishing between them. You even call it "a badge of commitment to atheist ideology". Anyone would think that you are conflating them. For the record, (1) atheism is NOT an ideology, and (2) most atheists are NOT transhumanists.

typical of your to miss the boat






Joe:The dangers of scientism and the loss of humanity have been lurking over modernity for a long time.

- Again I agree that this form of scientism

we are making progress

(if it actually is a real thing)

slowly

is not something that I or most atheists would subscribe to. Yet, you raise the specter of this supposed de-humanization over and over again, against people who hold no such attitudes (like Jerry Coyne, for example).

He is an idiot. It's typical of radical God hater type to push a fake love of humanity which conceals hatred of the basic things that make us human.Religion is a form of humanization.


You are creating a straw man, and using it as a weapon against atheists. I have pointed this out to you repeatedly, so why do you keep repeating it? If you want to criticize Zoltan Istvan, why don't you make it clear that he doesn't represent most atheists?

Obviously you did't read what I said, "Amomg them": means one of many different of many.It is really ignorant to assert that TH is not a movement and doesn't demarcate real issues. You ignore the fact I quote other thinkers like Letterer


the very first line of the article says: "The problem is that among the forces gathered under the rubric 'scientism' is a movement that seeks the abolition of humanity, that movement is “transhumanism.” Says nothing about sympathies,It says there are different forces arrayed for scientisim, Atheists maybe one since I didn't mesothelioma even assume they are part of the hing? Latter when I say TH;s are atheists or tend to e I don't say all atheists are TH, so there;s no reason to assume that.

your paranoid fear that I'm conflating the two does not equal conflating the two,
im-skeptical said…
your paranoid fear that I'm conflating the two does not equal conflating the two
- So why does the title of this article refer to atheism when the subject is something different? And why do you say it's "a badge of commitment to atheist ideology"?

If you don't mean to conflate them, then you are not communicating very clearly, because thee message that comes across is not what you intend.


He is an idiot.
- That's the opinion of someone who accuses him of opinions and attitudes that he doesn't hold.


Blogger im-skeptical said...
your paranoid fear that I'm conflating the two does not equal conflating the two
- So why does the title of this article refer to atheism when the subject is something different? And why do you say it's "a badge of commitment to atheist ideology"?

Trans humanists tend to be atheists so they are subset, they are a kind of atheist. But really it;'s because that;s the title of the chapter of which this is a part. In the context of the over all chapter it's even more clear the TH;s are just one sub set of atheist. Atheists are not even the subject of the chapter or the book. They are included but not the major issue,

If you don't mean to conflate them, then you are not communicating very clearly, because thee message that comes across is not what you intend.

bull shit you are not concerned with truth or logic or communicating you are just trying to throw a wretch in the works...


He is an idiot.

- That's the opinion of someone who accuses him of opinions and attitudes that he doesn't hold.

you are blind and you refuse to see, he is ignorant hateful moron who can't reason,
im-skeptical said…
Atheists are not even the subject of the chapter or the book. They are included but not the major issue
- OK. So you are posting this article, which is just an excerpt from your upcoming book, with a misleading title. You haven't explained that there is a larger context for all this, and if we read the whole thing then we MIGHT be able to get the larger picture of what you are really saying. Frankly, you are doing your readers a disservice. An article should be more or less self-contained, unless you clearly state that it must be considered as part of a larger whole. Otherwise, it only leads to confusion.

Nevertheless, there is still good reason to think you are conflating things. You obviously want to paint people like Coyne with attributes that they don't espouse. Either you are being dishonest, or you don't really know what their values are and what they believe. Do you think it might be useful to do a little reading to find out, before you make these attacks?
Blogger im-skeptical said...
Atheists are not even the subject of the chapter or the book. They are included but not the major issue
- OK. So you are posting this article, which is just an excerpt from your upcoming book, with a misleading title. You haven't explained that there is a larger context for all this, and if we read the whole thing then we MIGHT be able to get the larger picture of what you are really saying. Frankly, you are doing your readers a disservice. An article should be more or less self-contained, unless you clearly state that it must be considered as part of a larger whole. Otherwise, it only leads to confusion.

you are full of shit, nothing misleading about it. only an idiot would be misled by but they are atheists.the enemy is attacking, must fight enemy must stop enemy from tormenting the name of religion.

Nevertheless, there is still good reason to think you are conflating things. You obviously want to paint people like Coyne with attributes that they don't espouse. Either you are being dishonest, or you don't really know what their values are and what they believe. Do you think it might be useful to do a little reading to find out, before you make these attacks?

"Painting" your hero (It's my opinion so that's "pantomime") everything say is wrong and every thing I do iswromg say is wrong and I never mean well.

you will not divert attention from my work any longer, nothing you said here is argued nothing is backed by anything other than your stupidity,you have noting to say.
notice how both of they ignore everything that came after the transhymanism, they are are just religiously silent on everything after that,
im-skeptical said…
notice how both of they ignore everything that came after the transhymanism, they are are just religiously silent on everything after that
- It is impossible to address the claims you make in the latter part of the article until you come to grips with our commentary on the earlier part.

You say:
The dangers of scientism and the loss of humanity have been lurking over modernity for a long time. These things go way back to the nineteenth century. What we see emerging today as the perils brought on by scientism is just the modern outcome of trends that were engaged by Albert Schweitzer as early as 1900
and:
The end result, according to Mills, is that society becomes filled with "cheerful robots," those who obey the programming of technique and cannot seek alternatives.[21] Mills charged that the social sciences help to further the aims and methods of technique, hiding behind the " scientific objectivity," unwilling to mount any critique. Mills anticipates Herbert Marcuse's work, written in 1964

It's obvious that you are talking about more than just a fringe group of atheists. Transhumanism didn't exist in 1900. It certainly appears that you are connecting them to atheism in general. Yet you completely ignore the fact that a genuine humanist philosophy is far more mainstream among modern atheists. Why do you refuse to address the philosophical positions that most atheists actually adhere to, and focus instead on a fringe ideology?
this topic is closed I posted a new one

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