Redefining Resurrection, Part 2
As I said last time, some fundy
atheists define “resurrection” so broadly that it would include even things
like Michael Jackson in Thriller and Popeye eating spinach. Some of them play
word games as part of that semantic expansion process, or appeal to
irrelevancies to argue that there was some variation in Jewish beliefs about
resurrection. Let’s look at some examples of texts they manipulate.
1 Enoch 25:6 …And they shall live a
long life on earth, Such as thy fathers lived: And in their days shall no
sorrow or plague or torment or calamity touch them.
One particularly strained reading of
this passage claims that these resurrected parties die because they are
compared to Old Testament figures such as Methusaleh, rather than living
forever. The initial and obvious problem is that there’s nothing in the passage
or surrounding it that indicates that there are people who were resurrected.
Rather, these are the “righteous and the pious” who are permitted to eat from the
tree of life. Self-evidently, if they are eating fruit, they are not dead
people in need of resurrection. As Hobbins says in his essay, “Resurrection in
Daniel and Other Writings at Qumran,” chapter 25 of 1 Enoch “may not present
any aspect of the final destination of the righteous dead; it may describe only
what God has in store for the righteous who are alive when he eliminates evil
and corruption from the earth.” Resurrection is not found here except by
gratuitous implication.
Another tactic to confuse the issue
is to appeal to various speculations about the nature of the resurrection body
found in various texts. For example, it may be pointed out that one text
discusses how the resurrected will get to choose their own forms, while another
text says that the resurrected will be consigned to either an eternal reward or
eternal shame. Such appeals are interesting but spurious in the context of a discussion
of the subject at hand: As I said previously, that Christianity’s claim that
the process of resurrection was one reserved for the end of time, and for all
men, all at once, and the resurrection of Jesus would have been a non-starter
in Jewish contexts based on this alone. None of the appealed-to variations
involve variations on the timing question; they are variations on questions of
nature, process and ability.
Questions like these were a
commonplace. Paul himself is addressing related concerns when he answers the question
of what kind of body the dead will come in. However, there is nothing at all
that shows any variation in belief regarding the timing of a collective
resurrection.
As noted earlier, though, critics
try to confuse this issue by defining all sorts of events as “resurrections”
which are not. As I told C. Dennis McKinsey at one point, raisings like those performed
by Elijah, Elisha and Jesus are not resurrections; the people did not return in
glorified and immortal bodies. 9To which McKinsey made the amazing retort that
maybe they did and it wasn’t mentioned!) It should be no wonder that scholars
would not discuss these stories in the context of resurrection; that is exactly
what they are not. No more so than Popeye. Perhaps the least ludicrous of these
propositions is the argument that Herod must have thought John the Baptist was
resurrected (Matt. 14:1-2). But really, we do not know what Herod thought; we
do not know if he thought John was resurrected, or merely resuscitated. Given
the context of the beliefs in question,. It is far more likely that he thought
John has been resuscitated like Lazarus.
In the end, these exercises in
semantic gerrymandering do more to illustrate how strained arguments against
the historical Resurrection of Jesus have to get in order to try to persuade
anyone who isn’t already worshipping at the altar of Carl Sagan.
Comments
Not sure if I am misreading this, as it looks like you are saying a general resurrection for all at the apocalypse would be a non-starter for Jews. From what I have seen on the issue, that looks to be exactly what the Pharisees believed.
On the other hand, what they expected of the messiah was a military leader who would leader them to victory against whoever the oppressor of the day was, and not one who would get crucified before striking a single blow. That is your non-starter.
JPH: However, there is nothing at all that shows any variation in belief regarding the timing of a collective resurrection.
So that would be an argument from silence then?
The sad fact is we have precious little about what Jews believed at the time with regards to the resurrection. The NT is actually the best source on the Pharisees, and clearly had no need to be flattering or accurate. And we do know the Sadducees had a very different view of the resurrection, so I find this claim of a monolithic belief to be dubious.
Joe: Their major approach is to distract with mi or issues like New body body vs revamped body.
Irrelevant to JPH's post, so I will not get into it here, but what makes that so important is how it connects to the Empty Tomb. That said, I will suggest that the other resurrections (resuscitations?) were in the revamped original body, and so quite different in nature to Jesus.
PixNot sure if I am misreading this, as it looks like you are saying a general resurrection for all at the apocalypse would be a non-starter for Jews. From what I have seen on the issue, that looks to be exactly what the Pharisees believed.
No he means the r of Jesus because it did not come at the of time and only raised one guy (or maybe a few but not all of fallen Israel) would have been suspect to the Jews as a proof of Messiah,.
Joe: Their major approach is to distract with mi or issues like New body body vs revamped body.
Pix Irrelevant to JPH's post, so I will not get into it here, but what makes that so important is how it connects to the Empty Tomb. That said, I will suggest that the other resurrections (resuscitations?) were in the revamped original body, and so quite different in nature to Jesus.
You like getting your ass kicked hu? I only chew my spinach once,
You are misreading it. I said exactly the opposite. May I suggest a literacy and comprehension course?
>>>The sad fact is we have precious little about what Jews believed at the time with regards to the resurrection.
It's more than enough. If it isn't, then Richard Carrier's books should all be nothing but blank pages.
>>>The NT is actually the best source on the Pharisees, and clearly had no need to be flattering or accurate.
And what bearing does this have on the issue at hand? NONE. It's just well-poisoning, and there's no evidence of distorted views on this point.
>>>And we do know the Sadducees had a very different view of the resurrection, so I find this claim of a monolithic belief to be dubious.
That's too bad for you, since playing dumb is all you have rather than actual evidence. And as noted, this would have no bearing on variations of views on timing.