I agree 100%. I think mythicists are doing the Anti-Supernaturalism Movement a real disservice by peddling the nonsense that Jesus did not exist and that the crucifixion is a non-historical event.
Scientology gained more adherents in a shorter time. It's NOT impossible to explain. People are gullible.
Anonymous said…
People are gullible, huh? I don't think that you are in a position to call them that, Skep. You seem to believe that life came from non-life. That's way more unlikelier than the Resurrection.
I wonder why Wright doesn't mention one single piece of evidence for the crucifixion. He says there are 'thousands of things' that serve as proof, so why not tell us about a single one? Would his 'evidence' stand up to scientific scrutiny?
Wright is ostensibly wrong when he says that 'From the very beginning, Christians made the cross the symbol of their movement" The early Chistians didn't portray the crucifiction at all; they used the 'fish' symbol to indicate their religion, and portrayed Jesus as a teacher (e.g. in the Roam catacombes). So if the portrayal of the crucifiction by early Christians is Wright's strongest evidence....
People are gullible, huh? I don't think that you are in a position to call them that, Skep. You seem to believe that life came from non-life. That's way more unlikelier than the Resurrection.
Better to believe based on observable evidence and science than on unverifiable stories.
For millennia, humans have attributed events in nature to gods to later find out through the scientific method that very natural explanations lie behind these events. That does not mean that a god did not create the universe, it only means that before we assume again that "a god did it" we should withhold judgment until better evidence is available.
However, I do believe that the evidence is clear that even if a god did create the universe, it could not have been Yahweh. Any being who believes that a firmament (a dome) exists above the earth could not have created our complex universe.
Anonymous said…
Better to believe based on observable evidence and science than on unverifiable stories.
Wow, what a bunch of interesting comments. Not particularly enlightening, but interesting.
im-skeptical - Yes, people are gullible. That's the reason so many people believe what Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins write. And Don was 100% right that your faith in life springing from non-life is not based on observable evidence (which is what you claim to rely upon).
Bob, it's a short piece -- less than two minutes long. He was merely stating what historians accept, not providing the evidence in this clip.
Gary, agree with your first post but then you lose me on the second paragraph of the second. A debate for another day, perhaps.
Fish does not predate cross. Fish came after anchor and anchor assumes cross. Fish was used as a response to persecution, So they were using the cross before tahtwhen they were not persecuted.
Are you serious? You just accused me of having no observable evidence for my naturalism (despite the obvious fact that EVERYTHING we observe has no visible supernatural element). Meanwhile, you believe that God created life, despite the fact that you have NEVER observed any such thing. You have never observed a supernatural being, let alone a supernatural being creating life. But you insist that your belief is based on evidence.
Joe, your reference says: "The first century symbol wasn't the cross; it was the anchor." Whether the symbol used by early Christians was a fish or an anchor, the conclusion remains that it was NOT the cross; so Wright is still wrong in trying to 'prove' the crucifixion.
So out of the thousands of pieces of evidence that he claims to have, he picks the one that is invalid. Very sad.
why an anchor? Because it assumes a cross. it has the cross bar at the top. So it is a cross,
what you are saying is like saying "they didn't believe in Jesus Christ God'/s son as savior but iijm fish; that is what the fish meant.
Anonymous said…
IMS Are you serious? You just accused me of having no observable evidence for my naturalism (despite the obvious fact that EVERYTHING we observe has no visible supernatural element). Meanwhile, you believe that God created life, despite the fact that you have NEVER observed any such thing. You have never observed a supernatural being, let alone a supernatural being creating life. But you insist that your belief is based on evidence.
God acts outside of nature, so you can't see him. As Joe says, he is being itself.
And, while I have never seen God create life (none of us were there), I have never seen things create themselves without some conscious mind having to do with their creation.
Don, please note that IMS's feigned outrage is nothing more than a distraction to avoid answering your original challenge. Really, his anemic understanding of evidence already rules him incapable of rational conversation. I don't know why you bother.
Please tell me more about my anemic understanding of evidence. You're the one who believes that a third-hand story told by an unknown source, and subsequently edited to comply with church dogma, with zero corroboration outside the bible itself is something that constitutes credible evidence.
My evidence for naturalism is ubiquitous. I don't observe anything in the universe that is supernatural in origin. And your evidence is the same. You just believe that God had to be the maker of it all. But that's not evidence - it's just belief.
And why you address your remark to Don, when it wasn't his post, and he hasn't participated in this discussion so far, is yet another mystery that defies explanation. But that's par for the course when trying to engage in rational discussion with you.
Joe, "why an anchor? Because it assumes a cross. it has the cross bar at the top. So it is a cross" doesn't convince me. The anchor was often depicted lying horizontally, unlike a - standing - cross. And the crossbar was often curved. Hence, no attempt was made to 'assume' a cross in these anchors.
Your reference mentions several reasons why the anchor was used a s a symbol, but NOT that it suggests a cross: the main reasons would have been a representation of Hebrews 6:19: "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure." (NIV)
By the way, Wikipedia says "Among the symbols employed by the early Christians, that of the fish seems to have ranked first in importance."
A couple of months ago, I wrote a post about the Gospel of Matthew’s account of the slaughter of the innocents. Therein, I argued that some of the skepticism about the account was unjustified. One argument I made was that the number of children killed in Bethlehem would likely have been no more than 20. Though obviously an act of great evil, the killing of 20 children would be much less likely to be noticed by historians of the time than the slaughter of thousands as later traditions speculated. In response to the post, Peter Kirby asked a few questions. He has patiently waited my response, continuously delayed by work, family, and the completion of my Acts article . Two of the questions had to do with how the amount of 20 was determined. Others with the omission of the account by Luke and the reliability of the tradition recounted by Macrobius. Peter also mentioned that there were other reasons to doubt the story's historicity beyond just the silence of other sources. I ...
I first made this post in 2012, and since then I've made a sort of mini-career out of tracking down bogus quotes like this one (including a video version below). It's a sort of fun microcosm of the way information is mishandled in the Information Age. ** I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. – Mahatma Gandhi A Christian can probably expect to get this quote thrown at them at least once in their lifetime, and waved in their face many more. I had it put to me recently, but my experience with this sort of thing immediately led me to wonder -- is it real? The evidence at this point seems to be no. The first signal of a problem was that anywhere I found it, no source was given. That's often a sign that something is being passed around uncritically. Whether online sources or books, no one seemed to have a source for this quote. A second warning was that the quote has been given more than one context. As ...
A visitor to the CADRE site recently sent a question about Paul's statement in Acts 20:35 which records Paul as saying, "And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is better to give than to receive'." The reader wanted to know where Jesus said this. This was my answer: You are correct in noting that this saying of Jesus quoted by Paul is not found anywhere in the four Gospels. My own study Bible says "This is a rare instance of a saying of Jesus not found in the canonical Gospels." Does the fact that it isn't stated in the Gospels mean that it isn't reliably from the lips of Jesus? I don't think so. The Apolstle John said at the end of his Gospel (John 21:25): "Jesus did many other things as well.If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." Obviously, this is exaggeration for the sake of making a point, but it means that Jesus ...
One of the most well-known events in Scriptures is Jesus' exchange with Pontius Pilate at his trial as described in John 18. In verse 38 of that chapter, Pilate asks the question that may be the most ironic in the history of the world, "What is truth?" A less known but equally intriguing saying of Jesus from an apologetics viewpoint can be found in Jesus' response to an earlier question in the same trial. It is a question that is not often quoted, but on those rare occasions when it is quoted, Jesus' response is often overlooked as not particularly important or relevant to today's world. However, it is my experience (as well as the experience of many people who have truly spent time studying the Scriptures) that little, if any, of what Jesus said in the Bible lacks significance across time. To best understand the response, it's important to see the response in context. The situation is this: Jesus has been arrested following His betrayal by Judas I...
So, back around 2000, some smugglers were caught smuggling antiquities around Turkey, and a quite interesting text was picked up while raiding them (or so the story goes), written in gold(ish?) ink in Syriac on leather. Now it's mid-December 2015, and more importantly Christmas time, and more importantly than that it's time to generate some hits on websites y'all! So let's see just how much anti-Christian conspiracy we can wring out of this curiosity! Or maybe get some web-hits out of pouring cold water on the feverish fires of anti-Christian conspiracy. Y'know, whichever. Option 2 sounds more fun, so let's go with that. • SO IS THIS A 1500 YEAR OLD BIBLE?! No, because it isn't a "Bible". It's one text. Which would still be pretty interesting, but don't be fooled by hysterical claims of it being a "Bible" (except in the sense of it being a book, loosely speaking). There are actual collections of scriptural texts that are 1500...
The Kalam Cosmological Argument presents an argument for the existence of God from the existence of the universe by posing a series of three dilemmas, each of which builds upon the other. The three dilemmas are as follows: (1) The universe had a beginning or it did not have a beginning. (2) The beginning of the universe was caused or it was not caused. (3) The cause of the universe was personal or it was impersonal. The three dilemmas present the three questions in "A or not-A" styles. Thus, it is not possible to choose some other intermediate ground on these issues. Either the universe had a beginning or it didn't -- there is no middle ground. It is only if the question is answered in the affirmative that one would move on to the second question. I think that most people now acknowledge that the universe had a beginning. While there remain models for a beginningless universe, most scientists that I have read seems to agree that the universe is expanding and it is acceler...
Recently a friend on Facebook argued that Christians have no business declaring the Resurrection of Jesus to be the most probable ( a posteriori ) explanation for the relevant facts, since they are unable to first pin down the prior probability of the Resurrection independent of those facts. I think that's a reasonable enough objection and deserves a reply. After all, posterior probability by definition is a function of both likelihood on the evidence and prior probability. [1] Clearly, then, one cannot determine posterior probability without some idea of the prior. My friend went on to say that the prior probability of a hypothesis is typically established as a ratio of previous instances of the event and total opportunities for the event to have occurred: "Normally we determine the probability of X by how many occasions of X we have seen out of how many opportunities for X there have been. Is the resurrection of Jesus some kind of exception?" This amounts t...
This was a post on the Debunking Christianity blog. It's by Loftus and then when I answered some another atheist comes in: Loftus: I find it odd that otherwise intelligent people can misread so badly what Beversluis had written about C.S. Lewis. I think it's because many Christians hold Lewis in some sort of iconic status that any criticism, even a mild one, and even if correct, is seen as a personal attack on their hero. 9:17 AM, June 26, 2008 Blogger J.L. Hinman said... I couldn't stand Lewis for a large part of my Christian life. I only began to finally gain some respect for him as i began going to graduate school and actually learned enough to realize that he knew a great deal more than I did. The problem is that skeptics can't understand faith. Probably they are too busy being skeptical about it. So faith is transitory. I grows. Growth means change. so when faith changes skeptics think it's been lost. Its not lost it's just changed. 8:59...
Long-necks from Short-necks? As I was checking out some links in an e-mail update I received from the ABR, I came across an article entitled "Should Evolution be Immune from Critical Analysis?" by David Buckna on a website entitled Revolution Against Evolution . In this article, I found the following statement that I found rather interesting: One popular biology textbook used in public schools is "Inquiry Into Life" by Sylvia Mader, published by McGraw-Hill Ryerson. On page 529 (eighth edition) are diagrams of giraffes which compare Lamarck's theory and Darwin's theory. According to Darwin, "Early giraffes probably had necks of various lengths. Natural selection due to competition led to survival of the longer-necked giraffes and their offspring. Eventually, only long-necked giraffes survived the competition." Regarding giraffes, shouldn't students be taught to distinguish between fact and speculation? No fossil evidence has ever been unearthe...
We want to know origins. We want to know why we are here even if there no real reason (we want to know that too). This is why we don’t see scientists just throwing up their arms and saying “there's no way to tell it's all here that's all.” They are still making theories because we want to know. We don’t find it satisfying to just leave it hanging. Perhaps there is no actual reason and saying that is not satisfying than sloughing off the question as though it's not important; that is most unsatisfying of all. Yet modern secular thought can't even ask the question much less answer it. It's not enough to merely talk about planetary formation and how the galaxy emerged. That's not an answer to the question “why are we here?” Even if the answer is “there is no way to know” we still want to know that definitively. Modern secular thought can't give a definitive answer because the question is out of bounds. That is a metaphysical question and modern thou...
Comments
The Resurrection, on the other hand...
Scientology gained more adherents in a shorter time. It's NOT impossible to explain. People are gullible.
Wright is ostensibly wrong when he says that 'From the very beginning, Christians made the cross the symbol of their movement" The early Chistians didn't portray the crucifiction at all; they used the 'fish' symbol to indicate their religion, and portrayed Jesus as a teacher (e.g. in the Roam catacombes). So if the portrayal of the crucifiction by early Christians is Wright's strongest evidence....
Better to believe based on observable evidence and science than on unverifiable stories.
However, I do believe that the evidence is clear that even if a god did create the universe, it could not have been Yahweh. Any being who believes that a firmament (a dome) exists above the earth could not have created our complex universe.
Whatever you say, Skep.
im-skeptical - Yes, people are gullible. That's the reason so many people believe what Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins write. And Don was 100% right that your faith in life springing from non-life is not based on observable evidence (which is what you claim to rely upon).
Bob, it's a short piece -- less than two minutes long. He was merely stating what historians accept, not providing the evidence in this clip.
Gary, agree with your first post but then you lose me on the second paragraph of the second. A debate for another day, perhaps.
Tell me. When is the last time you saw God creating life?
HERE
Are you serious? You just accused me of having no observable evidence for my naturalism (despite the obvious fact that EVERYTHING we observe has no visible supernatural element). Meanwhile, you believe that God created life, despite the fact that you have NEVER observed any such thing. You have never observed a supernatural being, let alone a supernatural being creating life. But you insist that your belief is based on evidence.
So out of the thousands of pieces of evidence that he claims to have, he picks the one that is invalid. Very sad.
what you are saying is like saying "they didn't believe in Jesus Christ God'/s son as savior but iijm fish; that is what the fish meant.
God acts outside of nature, so you can't see him. As Joe says, he is being itself.
And, while I have never seen God create life (none of us were there), I have never seen things create themselves without some conscious mind having to do with their creation.
My evidence for naturalism is ubiquitous. I don't observe anything in the universe that is supernatural in origin. And your evidence is the same. You just believe that God had to be the maker of it all. But that's not evidence - it's just belief.
And why you address your remark to Don, when it wasn't his post, and he hasn't participated in this discussion so far, is yet another mystery that defies explanation. But that's par for the course when trying to engage in rational discussion with you.
It is false to think no proof SN, the basis of mystical experiences a porori proof of SN.
Your reference mentions several reasons why the anchor was used a s a symbol, but NOT that it suggests a cross: the main reasons would have been a representation of Hebrews 6:19: "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure." (NIV)
By the way, Wikipedia says "Among the symbols employed by the early Christians, that of the fish seems to have ranked first in importance."
Still no evidence for the crucifixion.......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism