Experience of God's Presence offers rational Warramt for belef, ,

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not my flicr






J.P. Holding posted on Friday with an idea that I can't stand. it's a rejection of personal testimony as part evangelism: "Personal testimony is a damaging, destructive, and undesirable form of evangelism that ought to be abandoned." [1] Gee we've never had disagreements in the cadre before,except on little stuff like and politics and religion. J.P. goes on:
This is a hard thesis to swallow, I know. Every evangelistic program makes personal testimony the centerpiece of evangelism. “Jesus can change your life, like he did mine” is the theme of every evangelist from Billy Graham on down the line. But let’s face it, for all the respect Graham and others may have accrued, it is clear that their practices have in the long run produced a raft of shallow converts (who sometimes “walk the aisle” and “make a decision” multiple times in their lives) and a church that is slowly dying in the West, and may well disappear in the next 30 years. As the saying goes, it is not so much foolish to do something that does not work, but to do it again and again expecting different and better results. (Ibid)
I think the only valid reason to actually give your life to something as one must do for Christ is if it really changes your life and that demands a personal testimony. I do agree with one thing I seldom find anyone presenting such testimony in a very intelligent way. Many Christians who don't really have much more than some nice feelings try to make those feelings paramount, and turn the focus to feelings rather than use the fillings as a from of verification of some larger thesis. Actually I do not bring this up to attack J,P, I'm more concerned the atheists reaction to it.

There is nothing wrong with the idea that religion promises to provide us with ultimate tranformative experience (UTE) in resolving he human problematic.To that extent doing what it claims to do is a sign of truth content. Atheists will deny this but ask then how they know science is true? Their first answer will always be because it works. Often they will use the use of computers as evidence but this matter of science working. When it's science working = truth when it's religion it does not. That's their line. You see I'm more upset about the way the atheists use their cloak of objectivity to hide their own subjective problems and lambaste religion for being subjective. 

As a former evangelical Christian, I believe that William Lane Craig is dead wrong. Subjective feelings can fool you. Subjective feelings told the people of Jonestown to drink poisoned Kool-Aid. Subjective feelings told the people of Heaven’s Gate to commit suicide in their beds. Subjective feelings and subjective personal experiences are NOT reliable indicators of the truth, folks. Demand EVIDENCE. Always demand evidence for EVERY truth claim.(ibid)

How many times did you drink poison cool-aid in your church? atheism teaches you to fear feelings and to dream emotions. O they shutter at he thought of feelings and yet vent their spleens expressing feelings of hated for God and Christians. In many cases atheism itself is an emotional reaction of low self esteem [
2][3]. You do not have to fear feelings, subjective feelings will not lead to you drank poison if you know what you are doing and if you have a maturate balance of feelings and logic.It's when you never learn to control your feelings you fear them that you finally accept uncontrollable feelings and go off the deep end.


As an atheist i feared feelings,I refused to feel. I kept things bottled up and I told myself I was a Vulcan I was superior to others because i did not have emotions. when I got saved God showed me how to control my emotions and to learn to live with them, then you can understand how they help guide you, in conjunction with logic and reason.

Atheists will attempt to reduce the process to feelings as though it's the emotional effect of the feelings themselves rather than the larger psychological effect of having the experience, There are major psychological effects of having religious experience, they are dramatic and transformative, This is the UTE of which I spoke above, I said it was the resolution of the human problematic. Human problematic,  the problem at the heart of being human, In Christianity that is sin. "being lost," UTE is the effect of the healing process of salvation,Paul calls it:the "fruit of the Spirit," at least it's included.

First before going into the effects in terms of using the intuitive sense as an undertaking of reality, a lot of scientific research indicates the value of initiative sense.



 There's an article in N.Y. Times that illustrates scientific work depending upon and being  conformed by intuitive thinking. The article is a chapter form a book by Philip Lieberman, Eve Spoke, Human Language and Human Evolution.[4]  The book is based upon scholarly work.

Over the past thirty years my colleagues and I have studied monkeys, chimpanzees, infants, children, normal adults, dyslexic adults, elderly people, and patients suffering from Parkinson's disease and other types of brain damage. We have also examined the skulls of our fossil ancestors, comparing them with those of newborn infants and apes. The focus of these studies has been the puzzle surrounding human evolution. Why are we so different from other animals, although we are at the same time so similar?...In some deep, unconscious way we "know" that dogs, cats, chimpanzees, and other intelligent animals would be human if they could only talk. Intuitively we know that talking = thinking = being human. The studies discussed below show that this intuition is correct.
 This may upset young earth creationists, which I don't  mind doing, but it doesn't disrupt my Christian faith because I don't see evolution as a disruption. Nor does it disprove the existence of the soul because that depends upon answering the question "why is it we did evolve to talk and other animals did not? There are two points that refute Hutson's ideas: (1) not only does religious belief depend upon intuitive thinking of a kind (at certain points) but so does scinece as well. (2) this scientist thinks that the intuitive thinking is proved correct by the scinece. So intuitive thinking is not always wrong. Some studies backing this up have shown that the correct results of intuitive thinking, while not better than other forms of knowing, are not worse.[5]

 U.S. Navy reserach has yielded so much scientific data backing the notion that there is an intuitive sense that aids troops in battle that they started a program to teach troops how to be more intuitive.

 Research in human pattern recognition and decision-making suggest that there is a "sixth sense" through which humans can detect and act on unique patterns without consciously and intentionally analyzing them. Evidence is accumulating that this capability, known as intuition or intuitive decision making, enables the rapid detection of patterns in ambiguous, uncertain and time restricted information contexts, that it informs the decision making process and, most importantly, that it may not require domain expertise to be effective. These properties make intuition a strong candidate for further exploration as the basis for developing a new set of decision support training technologies.[6]
 Ivy Estabrook, program manager at the office of Naval Resarch, says, "There is a growing body of anecdotal evidence, combined with solid research efforts, that suggests intuition is a critical aspect of how we humans interact with our environment and how, ultimately, we make many of our decisions."[7]

 Published in Popular source Sarah Moore form Alberta School of Business and colleagues from Duke and Cornell have produced research that proves that the first choice one makes is often the right choice. [8] That certainly implies an intuitive choice. While Trisha Greenhalgh discusses research that shows that intution is a valuable aid in medical diagnosis and that it improves with critical thinking about the process. 

Intuition is not unscientific. It is a highly creative process, fundamental to hypothesis generation in science. The experienced practitioner should generate and follow clinical hunches as well as (not instead of applying the deductive principles of evidence-based medicine. The educational research literature suggests that we can improve our intuitive powers through systematic critical reflection about intuitive judgements--for example, through creative writing and dialogue with professional colleagues. It is time to revive and celebrate clinical storytelling as a method for professional education and development.[9]
 Not only is it not unscientific, not only can it assist in medical care, but it there's a large body of literature that shows it can be improved. How can it be improved (meaning the answers are right) if it's no good and it never works and it's just magical thinking?

We have rational warrant for belief. The basic goal religion promises to give it delivers: UTE. That is in the form of self actualization,So these studies just alluded to show that intuitive sense is not wild and crazy is not always wrong, Then we see that religious experiences produces self actualization which is the goal promised in dealing with he problematic of being human, Thus beloief is warranted,It works (ie does what it claims to do) that is a good indication that its true, We can trjust our imtuative sense of God's reality.


self Actualization


Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs is as follows:
a theory in psychology that Abraham Maslow proposed in his 1943 paper A Theory of Human Motivation, which he subsequently extended to include his observations of man’s innate curiosity. His theory contended that as humans meet ‘basic needs’, they seek to satisfy successively ‘higher needs’ that occupy a set hierarchy. Maslow studied exemplary people such as Albert EinsteinJane AddamsEleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that “the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy.”

The studies show that people who have religious experience (what Mslow called "peak experience") other call "mystical," score much higher on self actualization tests than do atheists. 

Maslow was concerned with showing healthy psychology. He noted that Freud,Jung, and all the major thinkers in the field of psychology focused on what makes people abnormal, they wanted to know what makes people healthy. His notion of self actualization is the idea, the epitome of healthy psychology. In his research Maslow discovered that religious people tended to be more self actualized than those who do not have religious experiences and he wrote a book about it: Religious Values and Peak Experience (the entire text of the book is on line).

the rest of this section is from an older paper I used MLA style notation which embeds the source in the text with parenthetical inserts,



studies have validated Maslow:


Journal of Humanistic Psychology, Vol. 22, No. 3, 92-108 (1982)
DOI: 10.1177/0022167882223011

Scale Development and Theory Testing



Eugene W. MathesDepartment of Psychology, Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois 61455.
The research reported here involved the creation of a measure of the tendency to have peak experiences called the Peak Scale, and the testing of several hypotheses drawn from Maslow's theory of peak experiences. It was found that although individuals who report having peak experiences are also likely to report having experiences involving intense happiness, they are even more prone to report having cognitive experiences of a transcendent and mystical nature. This suggests that although the peak experience involves positive affect, it is primarily a transcendent and mystical cognitive event. Individuals who report having peak experiences are more likely to report living in terms of Being-values, such as truth, beauty, and justice, than individuals who report not having peak experiences. Finally, self-actualizing individuals are more likely to report having peak experiences than lessself-actualizing individuals, though the relationship is not a very strong one. In general, these results are consistent with Maslow's theorizing.
Many other studies have done as well.

Dr. Michale Nielson,Ph.D. Psychology and religion.
"http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/ukraine/index.htm"

Quote:

"What makes someone psychologically healthy? This was the question that guided Maslow's work. He saw too much emphasis in psychology on negative behavior and thought, and wanted to supplant it with a psychology of mental health. To this end, he developed a hierarchy of needs, ranging from lower level physiological needs, through love and belonging, to self- actualization. Self-actualized people are those who have reached their potential for self-development. Maslow claimed that mystics are more likely to be self-actualized than are other people. Mystics also are more likely to have had "peak experiences," experiences in which the person feels a sense of ecstasy and oneness with the universe. Although his hierarchy of needs sounds appealing, researchers have had difficulty finding support for his theory." Gagenback

Quote:

In terms of psychological correlates, well-being and happiness has been associated with mystical experiences,(Mathes, Zevon, Roter, Joerger, 1982; Hay & Morisy, 1978; Greeley, 1975; Alexander, Boyer, & Alexander, 1987) as well as self-actualization (Hood, 1977; Alexander, 1992). Regarding the latter, the developer of self-actualization believed that even one spontaneous peak or transcendental experience could promote self-actualization. Correlational research has supported this relationship. In a recent statistical meta-analysis of causal designs with Transcendental Meditation (TM) controlling for length of treatment and strength of study design, it was found that: TM enhances self-actualization on standard inventories significantly more than recent clinically devised relaxation/meditation procedures not explicitly directed toward transcendence [mystical experience] (p. 1; Alexander, 1992)



But let us turn to quotations by Maslow himself, becuase it's very instructive. Maslow was an atheist but the had Buddhist leanings and he did not hate religious people. He respected religious people, especially mystics. He said:

My feeling is that if it were never to happen again, the power of the experience could permanently affect the attitude toward life. A single glimpse of heaven is enough to confirm its existence even if it is never experienced again. It is my strong suspicion that even one such experience might be able to prevent suicide, for instance, and perhaps many varieties of slow self-destruction, e.g., alcoholism, drug-addiction, addiction to violence, etc. I would guess also, on theoretical grounds, that peak-experiences might very well abort "existential meaninglessness," states of valuelessness, etc., at least occasionally. (These deductions from the nature of intense peak-experiences are given some support by general experience with LSD and psilocybin. Of course these preliminary reports also await confirmation.

This then is one kind of peak-knowledge of whose validity and usefulness there can be no doubt, any more than there could be with discovering for the first time that the color "red" exists and is wonderful. Joy exists, can be experienced and feels very good indeed, and one can always hope that it will be experienced again.


and again:

Now that may be taken as a frank admission of a naturalistic psychological origin, except that it invovles a universal symbology which is not explicable through merely naturalistic means. How is it that all humans come to hold these same archetypical symbols? (For more on archetypes see Jesus Chrsit and Mythology page II) The "prematives" viewed and understood a sense of transformation which gave them an integration into the universe. This is crucial for human development. They sensed a power in the numenous, that is the origin of religion."

"In Appendix I and elsewhere in this essay, I have spoken of unitive perception, i.e., fusion of the B-realm with the D-realm, fusion of the eternal with the temporal, the sacred with the profane, etc. Someone has called this "the measureless gap between the poetic perception of reality and prosaic, unreal commonsense." Anyone who cannot perceive the sacred, the eternal, the symbolic, is simply blind to an aspect of reality, as I think I have amply demonstrated elsewhere (54), and in Appendix I, fromPeak Experience



Anyone who cannot perceive the sacred and the eternal is blind... does that sound like the adult Maslow is ready to join in with your friend in mocking and ridiculing religious thought?

The Greely study spcificially disproves the notion this guy sets forth that religious people are losers and unsuceesful and trying to pretend about a "sky daddy" becuase they can't make it in life:

Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)



Long term effects of religious experience have been demonstrated by such major studies as Noble and Wuthnow:

Long-Term Effects

Wuthnow:

*Say their lives are more meaningful,
*think about meaning and purpose
*Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

Noble:

*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
*Less authoritarian and dogmatic
*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
*intelligent, relaxed
*High ego strength,
*relationships, symbolization, values,
*integration, allocentrism,
*psychological maturity,
*self-acceptance, self-worth,
*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
*increased love and compassion

Short-Term Effects (usually people who did not previously know of these experiences)

*Experience temporarily disorienting, alarming, disruptive
*Likely changes in self and the world,
*space and time, emotional attitudes, cognitive styles, personalities, doubt sanity and reluctance to communicate, feel ordinary language is inadequate

*Some individuals report psychic capacities and visionary experience destabilizing relationships with family and friends Withdrawal, isolation, confusion, insecurity, self-doubt, depression, anxiety, panic, restlessness, grandiose religious delusions

Links to Maslow's Needs, Mental Health, and Peak Experiences When introducing entheogens to people, I find it's helpful to link them to other ideas people are familiar with. Here are three useful quotations. 1) Maslow - Beyond Self Actualization is Self Transcendence ``I should say that I consider Humanistic, Third Force Psychology to be transitional, a preparation for a still `higher' Fourth Psychology, transhuman, centered in the cosmos rather than in human needs and interest, going beyond humanness, identity, selfactualization and the like.'' 

Abraham Maslow (1968). Toward a Psychology of Being, Second edition, -- pages iii-iv.



2) States of consciousness and mystical experiences
The ego has problems:
the ego is a problem.

``Within the Western model we recognize and define psychosis as a suboptimal state of consciousness that views reality in a distorted way and does not recognize that distortion. It is therefore important to note that from the mystical perspective our usual state fits all the criteria of psychosis, being suboptimal, having a distorted view of reality, yet not recognizing that distortion. Indeed from the ultimate mystical perspective, psychosis can be defined as being trapped in, or attached to, any one state of consciousness, each of which by itself is necessarily limited and only relatively real.'' -- page 665


Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.



3) Therapeutic effects of peak experiences

``It is assumed that if, as is often said, one traumatic event can shape a life, one therapeutic event can reshape it. Psychedelic therapy has an analogue in Abraham Maslow's idea of the peak experience. The drug taker feels somehow allied to or merged with a higher power; he becomes convinced the self is part of a much larger pattern, and the sense of cleansing, release, and joy makes old woes seem trivial.'' -- page 132


Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.




Transpersonal Childhood Experiences of Higher States of Consciousness: Literature Review and Theoretical Integration. Unpublished paper by Jayne Gackenback, (1992)
http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/cehsc/ipure.htm

"These states of being also result in behavioral and health changes. Ludwig (1985) found that 14% of people claiming spontaneous remission from alcoholism was due to mystical experiences while Richards (1978) found with cancer patients treated in a hallucinogenic drug-assisted therapy who reported mystical experiences improved significantly more on a measure of self-actualization than those who also had the drug but did not have a mystical experience. In terms of the Vedic Psychology group they report a wide range of positive behavioral results from the practice of meditation and as outlined above go to great pains to show that it is the transcendence aspect of that practice that is primarily responsible for the changes. Thus improved performance in many areas of society have been reported including education and business as well as personal health states (reviewed and summarized in Alexander et al., 1990). Specifically, the Vedic Psychology group have found that mystical experiences were associated with "refined sensory threshold and enhanced mind-body coordination (p. 115; Alexander et al., 1987)." 



(4) Greater happiness


Religion and Happiness

by Michael E. Nielsen, PhD


Many people expect religion to bring them happiness. Does this actually seem to be the case? Are religious people happier than nonreligious people? And if so, why might this be?

Researchers have been intrigued by such questions. Most studies have simply asked people how happy they are, although studies also may use scales that try to measure happiness more subtly than that. In general, researchers who have a large sample of people in their study tend to limit their measurement of happiness to just one or two questions, and researchers who have fewer numbers of people use several items or scales to measure happiness.

What do they find? In a nutshell, they find that people who are involved in religion also report greater levels of happiness than do those who are not religious. For example, one study involved over 160,000 people in Europe. Among weekly churchgoers, 85% reported being "very satisfied" with life, but this number reduced to 77% among those who never went to church (Inglehart, 1990). This kind of pattern is typical -- religious involvement is associated with modest increases in happiness



Argyle, M., and Hills, P. (2000). Religious experiences and their relations with happiness and personality. The International Journal for the Psychology of Religion, 10, 157-172.

Inglehart, R. (1990). Culture shift in advanced industrial society. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

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Recent Empirical Studies Prove Religious Believers have less depression, mental illness lower Divorce rate, ect.


J. Gartner, D.B. Allen, The Faith Factor: An Annotated Bibliography of Systematic Reviews And Clinical Research on Spiritual Subjects Vol. II, David B. Larson M.D., Natiional Institute for Health Research Dec. 1993, p. 3090

Quote:

"The Reviews identified 10 areas of clinical staus in whihc research has demonstrated benefits of religious commitment: (1) Depression, (2) Suicide, (3) Delinquency, (4) Mortality, (5) Alchohol use (6) Drug use, (7) Well-being, (8) Divorce and martital satisfaction, (9) Physical Health Status, and (10) Mental health outcome studies....The authors underscored the need for additional longitudinal studies featuring health outcomes. Although there were few, such studies tended to show mental health benefit. Similarly, in the case of teh few longevity or mortality outcome studies, the benefit was in favor of those who attended chruch...at least 70% of the time, increased religious commitment was associated with improved coping and protection from problems."

[The authors conducted a literature search of over 2000 publications to glean the current state of empirical study data in areas of Spirituality and health]
70% of the time believers are more likely than non believers (or at least experiences are more likely than non experiencers) to have these effects of self actualization


Sources
[1] J.P. Holding, "Restoring Apologetics to Evangelism," Cadre Comments, (April 28, 2017) blog URL: http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2017/04/restoring-apologetics-to-evangelism.html?showComment=1493580386542#c5987015393807167462

(accessed 4/30/17)

[2] Joseph Hinman, "Rejection of Christianity and Low Self Esteem," Atheiustwatch (October 25, 2010) URL

http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/rejection-of-christianity-and-self.html
(accessed 4/30/17)


[3] Ibid. part 2
http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/2010/10/atheists-and-self-esteem-part-2.html


[4] Philip Lieberman, "The Mice Talked at Midnight," except from Eve Spoke: Human Language and Human Evolution, New York: W.W. Norton, published in New York Times, on line http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/l/lieberman-eve.html  accessed 10/2/13
[5]AJ Giannini, ME Barringer, MC Giannini, RH Loiselle. Lack of relationship between handedness and intuitive and intellectual (rationalistic) modes of information processing. Journal of General Psychology. 111:31-37 1984.
[6] Office of naval research Basic Research Challenge: Enhancing intuitive deicsion making.

Solicitation Number: 12-SN-0007
Agency: Department of the Navy
Office: Office of Naval Research
Location: ONR
  https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=be0a1ab47e05fe0f9c2bd0ffd5e40b1a&_cview=1 
 accessed 10/2/13.
[7] Ivy Estabrook, uoted in Channing Joseph, "U.S. Program to Study How Troops Use Intuition," New York Times, Wednesday (Oct 2, 2013) story filed March 27, 2012, 5:09 pm on line
 http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/navy-program-to-study-how-troops-use-intuition/?_r=0
 accessed 10/2/13.
[8]Leon Watson ."why we are right to trust out gut intincts:Scientists discover First Decision is the Right One." Mail online updated 30 (August 2011)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031848/Why-right-trust-gut-instincts-Scientists-discover-decision-IS-right-one.html accessed 10/2/13
[9]Trisha Greenhalgh, "Intution and Evidence--Uneasy Bedfellows?" BJGP:British Journal of General Practice. 52, (478) May (2002) 395-400. On line article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1314297/  accessed 10/2/13
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Comments

im-skeptical said…
Why wasn't Maslow a Christian? Why didn't he conclude (as you do) that these peak experiences provide a "rational warrant for belief"?

Why don't you understand what Maslow did - that peak experiences are NOT fundamentally religious in nature. It is only your PRIOR BELIEFS that that turn a fundamentally HUMAN experience into a mystical religious experience.

Yes, there are many studies that correlate these experiences with well-being. And it is true that many people have subjective feelings that God made it happen. But you continue to ignore everything the scientific researchers say that indicates no reason to invoke God as the cause of this phenomenon.

Intuition is not necessarily wrong. But neither is it necessarily right. people have always believed many things that aren't true based on intuitive feelings, and religion is chief among those things.
J. P Holding said…
All of this is fine, Joe, but it's not germane to my points.

1) Personal testimony is not a Biblically warranted practice. It's an adjustment to modern sensibilities. On that you seem to agree with me and your detailed exposition only supports that point.

2) The problems of personal testimony outweigh the benefits. You've listed certain benefits, but that doesn't gauge the balance of benefits vs shortcomings.

3) If UTE gets someone converted, more power to them. But I don't think that's the optimal way to be converted; I don't think it's the optimal way to stay convinced (unless you shut yourself off from contrary ideas, which a lot of Christians certainly do); and it's not the most sound way to achieve an epistemology that has staying power.

Here's a thought experiment: Using your arguments, why wouldn't it be a good argument for the Mormon burning in the bosom?

My series has 7 parts to it. You might want to read it all first. :)
Joe Hinman said…

Blogger J. P Holding said...
All of this is fine, Joe, but it's not germane to my points.

1) Personal testimony is not a Biblically warranted practice. It's an adjustment to modern sensibilities. On that you seem to agree with me and your detailed exposition only supports that point.

there is no Biblical precipitate for using formal logic either, no Biblical verse saying It;s ok to make puns,

2) The problems of personal testimony outweigh the benefits. You've listed certain benefits, but that doesn't gauge the balance of benefits vs shortcomings.

the problems i see are if your testimony is boring or if you approach it like an idiot,

3) If UTE gets someone converted, more power to them. But I don't think that's the optimal way to be converted; I don't think it's the optimal way to stay convinced (unless you shut yourself off from contrary ideas, which a lot of Christians certainly do); and it's not the most sound way to achieve an epistemology that has staying power.

if you move of the power of the Spirit its the right thing, We have to stop thinking it;s all up to us and we need to take the power of God seriously,

Here's a thought experiment: Using your arguments, why wouldn't it be a good argument for the Mormon burning in the bosom?

they are trying manufacture a move of the spirit, the try to turn it in to a formula,

Joe Hinman said…
im-skeptical said...
Why wasn't Maslow a Christian? Why didn't he conclude (as you do) that these peak experiences provide a "rational warrant for belief"?

Maslow would totally reject New atheism if he were here today. He had great respect for religious people and he respected religious experience.I think he was not a Christian because he knew too many fundies and not enough spiritual Christians. He says the two,atheist and religious people can go "a very far distance down the road together."

Why don't you understand what Maslow did - that peak experiences are NOT fundamentally religious in nature. It is only your PRIOR BELIEFS that that turn a fundamentally HUMAN experience into a mystical religious experience.

I've read the book,I can guarantee you have not, you have read a few lines or summary by some atheist,I have been challenged on that many times every time I quote from the book he says religious experiences are part of peak experience, they far more common than non religious peak experience.

Yes, there are many studies that correlate these experiences with well-being. And it is true that many people have subjective feelings that God made it happen. But you continue to ignore everything the scientific researchers say that indicates no reason to invoke God as the cause of this phenomenon.

none of them say that not one single one,I have not seen a single one say it you are assuming they must you have not read one. You are twisting what they do say,"it's not my job to prove God exists" to mean God is not involved,I asked two of the major researchers who are not Christians, Newberg and Griffiths they both said "we have not disprove
God's involvement,


Intuition is not necessarily wrong. But neither is it necessarily right. people have always believed many things that aren't true based on intuitive feelings, and religion is chief among those things.

if your fear of experience was borne out there would be total confirmation that intuitive sense is disaster,
J. P Holding said…

>>there is no Biblical precipitate for using formal logic either, no Biblical verse saying It;s ok to make puns,

There is, however, a Biblical model for evangelism that involves appeal to fact: The Resurrection, prophecy fulfilled, etc. Any alternative therefore requires a sound defense.

>>>the problems i see are if your testimony is boring or if you approach it like an idiot,

Right. And how much personal testimony have you seen like that?

>>>if you move of the power of the Spirit its the right thing, We have to stop thinking it;s all up to us and we need to take the power of God seriously,

Right. And the Mormons say the same thing. And:


>>>they are trying manufacture a move of the spirit, the try to turn it in to a formula,

...they say the same of evangelical Christians. Where does that leave us as far as the epistemology of the situation?

im-skeptical said…
Maslow would totally reject New atheism if he were here today.

You know - every time I hear people like you drag out the "New Atheist" canard when there was no ridiculing, no name-calling, ad hominem, my respect for you goes down another notch. I was trying to engage in a respectful discussion. I asked serious questions, and you try to shut down the discussion with accusations of New Atheism. This is nothing more than your way of saying you disagree with my position, but you seem unable to say it in a respectful manner. Not conducive to discussion.
Joe Hinman said…
New atheism is not a dig at you,I am just saying Maslow was not radically committed to atheism. He was an atheist but he was not anti-religious.I'm not saying you are either.I did not mean to offend you,I am sorry you took it that way.

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