see Metacrock's blog
I have been writting a book on Christianity and the death of civilization seems lie a good time to reveal the first except from it.
CHRISTIANITY AND THE DEATH OF CIVILIZATION
Chapter 1: Is Civilization in Decline?
How Many Children in Bethlehem Did Herod Kill?
A couple of months ago, I wrote a post about the Gospel of Matthew’s account of the slaughter of the innocents. Therein, I argued that some of the skepticism about the account was unjustified. One argument I made was that the number of children killed in Bethlehem would likely have been no more than 20. Though obviously an act of great evil, the killing of 20 children would be much less likely to be noticed by historians of the time than the slaughter of thousands as later traditions speculated. In response to the post, Peter Kirby asked a few questions. He has patiently waited my response, continuously delayed by work, family, and the completion of my Acts article . Two of the questions had to do with how the amount of 20 was determined. Others with the omission of the account by Luke and the reliability of the tradition recounted by Macrobius. Peter also mentioned that there were other reasons to doubt the story's historicity beyond just the silence of other sources. I ...
Comments
The very first sentence of your book is wrong. Maybe it feels like everyone is saying that, maybe a lot of people are saying it, but it is not true that everyone thinks that, because I do not.
Do you think the Roman empire was a civilisation? I would say yes, and yet it was not Christian. Certainly Christianity has shaped our civilisation - but I would suggest our civilisation has shaped Christianity, and nowadays Christians are adamant that slavery is wrong.
I would also suggest there are two quite different topics here. Once is the collapse of civilisation, which some doom-mongers predict due to environmental and population issues. It will be characterised by people out on the street killing each other because they cannot get food and water; there will be no power, no phones, no internet because no one will be running those thing. Can Christianity help with that? Sure, by telling the fundamentalists that the rapture is not around the corner, so we need to look after the planet for the long term.
The other topic is the decline in the civilisation you want. "Kids nowadays have no respect for their elders; when I was young, there was none of this free love." Traditional Christian morals are disappearing: gay people are getting married, children are born out of wedlock, fewer and fewer are going to church. That is not a decline in civilisation, that is just Christianity losing control.
Which of those is your book about?
Pix
That is helpful. It's a rough draft.. you saved me from submitting a cliche.
Do you think the Roman empire was a civilisation? I would say yes, and yet it was not Christian. Certainly Christianity has shaped our civilisation - but I would suggest our civilisation has shaped Christianity, and nowadays Christians are adamant that slavery is wrong.
I did not say Christianity was the only source of civ in our culture. I went out of my way to avoid saying that.
I would also suggest there are two quite different topics here. Once is the collapse of civilisation, which some doom-mongers predict due to environmental and population issues. It will be characterised by people out on the street killing each other because they cannot get food and water; there will be no power, no phones, no internet because no one will be running those thing. Can Christianity help with that? Sure, by telling the fundamentalists that the rapture is not around the corner, so we need to look after the planet for the long term.
that is sort of my point
The other topic is the decline in the civilisation you want. "Kids nowadays have no respect for their elders; when I was young, there was none of this free love." Traditional Christian morals are disappearing: gay people are getting married, children are born out of wedlock, fewer and fewer are going to church. That is not a decline in civilisation, that is just Christianity losing control.
Which of those is your book about?
It's about fundamentalism diverting us from the former,and using the latter to do so.
Joe
Of course, the answer to all these is no.
The reality is - I suspect - that you want a return to an imaginary golden age, where all the good parts of Christianity are there, and all the bad parts, the things you would rather forget, never existed.
That will never happen. If you think Christian leaders are better nowadays, well, just look at Trump. You can argue he is not a Christian, but it was Christians who got him elected. Look at all the Christian preachers; how many of them have annual incomes in six or seven figures? These people are the antithesis of Jesus, who told his follows to give up all wealth. You really want them leader the country?
I would suggest that you should not be writing about the decline of civilisation, but about how wrong modern mainstream Christianity is.
Pix
Might be interesting to understand quite what you mean by Christian civilisation. Are you advocating a return to slavery, or just racial segregation?
where did I use the phrase Christian civilization? why do you insert that into my essay/? am I for slavery? of course isn't that civilized? why would you think you think?
Do you yearn for a return to the divine right of kings? Are you wanting women back in the kitchen, without a vote, accepting their place as inferior to men? Do you hope for a day when disrespectful children are stoned to death? How about the years of war with all those who interpret the Bible a little differently to you?
so we have sank so deeply into Barbarossa that you definer civilization in those terms?Note atheists vilify civilization.
Of course, the answer to all these is no.
you sure?I am a Christian you know
The reality is - I suspect - that you want a return to an imaginary golden age, where all the good parts of Christianity are there, and all the bad parts, the things you would rather forget, never existed.
I've already beaten you to the punch line,, I've know for some time no such time existed because I;m a historian you know. Yet I am not as ignorant as you are because I know of modern thinkers who are not Christians who still prize civilization.
That will never happen. If you think Christian leaders are better nowadays, well, just look at Trump. You can argue he is not a Christian, but it was Christians who got him elected.
that is a matter of opinion.
Look at all the Christian preachers; how many of them have annual incomes in six or seven figures? These people are the antithesis of Jesus, who told his follows to give up all wealth. You really want them leader the country?
yes its a crying shame, this has what to do with anything?
I would suggest that you should not be writing about the decline of civilization, but about how wrong modern mainstream Christianity is.
what makes you think they are not related? That you see no value in civilization proves how far gone we are
You have never heard Schweitzer;s philosophy of civilization
you really think I;m stupid don;t you?
Joe: Pix you are an idiot. there is an obvious dichotomy between conservative nostalgia for a more Christianized time, vs real issues of decline in our standards of survival. I'e thought about all of those things in chapter one,why do you assume I am stupid?
Okay, so what is this supposed "decline in our standards of survival"?
Has there been an increase in infant mortality? Has life expectancy been steadily declining? I am not aware of either. As far as I can tell, medical science is continually improving, and your chances of surviving cancer, for example, improve year after year. Infant moratily has dropped by more than half between 1990 and 2017 (https://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/neonatal_infant_text/en/).
Given you are basing your book on this, I assume you have evidence to actually back up your claim. That is what you need in chapter one.
Pix
Sorry if I misunderstood, but to be honest, I can see no other decline in civilisation.
to be honest my argument applies more to the US of A, Perhaps civ. itself is not going down the tubes but America is losing it's grip on the thing. More on this latter you know we have Trump so enough said....
Joe: Pix you are an idiot. there is an obvious dichotomy between conservative nostalgia for a more Christianized time, vs real issues of decline in our standards of survival. I'e thought about all of those things in chapter one,why do you assume I am stupid?
Okay, so what is this supposed "decline in our standards of survival"?
Has there been an increase in infant mortality? Has life expectancy been steadily declining? I am not aware of either. As far as I can tell, medical science is continually improving, and your chances of surviving cancer, for example, improve year after year. Infant moratily has dropped by more than half between 1990 and 2017 (https://www.who.int/gho/child_health/mortality/neonatal_infant_text/en/).
well I am starting from an assumption that certain thinkers of the 60s had an edge,namely Herbert Marcuse and C Wright Mills. So I have a standard that sees decline. Not to mention Albert Schweitzer who was saying civilization is already dead. For them civ is more than just science and industry it is ethical choices.
Given you are basing your book on this, I assume you have evidence to actually back up your claim. That is what you need in chapter one.
Naturally! say you did not read my post did you? you have sone bad habits you got from Skepie.
look for names like Turchin, Hedges, Ehrlich. start with fn 9.
Ehrlich listed ecological devastation and he peaks of mass extinction. The United Nations has released a study involving hundreds of scientists showing that Earth is facing another mass extinction; one million species are threatened with extinction due to human activity. The study consists of a distillation of 15000 previous studies.[19]
Without “transformative changes” to the world’s economic, social and political systems to address this crisis, the IPBES panel projects that major biodiversity losses will continue to 2050 and beyond. “We are eroding the very foundations of our economies, livelihoods, food security, health and quality of life worldwide,” says IPBES chair Robert Watson, an atmospheric Agricultural activities are also some of the largest contributors to human emissions of greenhouse gases. They account for roughly 25% of total emissions due to the use of fertilizers and the conversion of areas such as tropical forests to grow crops or raise livestock such as cattle... The next biggest threats to nature are the exploitation of plants and animals through harvesting, logging, hunting and fishing; climate change; pollution and the spread of invasive species. The IPBES report finds that the average abundance of native plants, animals and insects has fallen in most major ecosystems by at least 20% since 1900 because of invasive species.[20]
“The report draws inextricable links between biodiversity loss and climate change...Earth could lose 16% of its species if the average global temperature rise exceeds 4.3 °C.”[21] Ecology itself is not civilization but with such loses, the ability of nature to reproduce life impaired civilization would no doubt crumble. The report urges that we can reverse the process but “ doing so will require proactive environmental policies, the sustainable production of food and other resources and a concerted effort to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions.”[22]
All of that us table for Trump and his loyal Christian slaves.
What ethical choices? See, this is why I understood you be be bemoaning the decline of Christianity; you see a decline in Christian ethics.
Are there statistics that show murder rates are on the rise? Or theft or rape or other crimes that everyone agrees are wrong?
Or is this about an increase in children born out of wedlock, and similar decline in Christian values?
If you are right, civilisation has been declining for 60 years; it this is real there will be a big difference between 1960 and 2020 in whatever you see as the key parameter.
Joe: Ehrlich listed ecological devastation and he peaks of mass extinction. The United Nations has released a study involving hundreds of scientists showing that Earth is facing another mass extinction; one million species are threatened with extinction due to human activity. The study consists of a distillation of 15000 previous studies.[19]
See the problem is that you flip between different ideas of decline. This is very different to the decline in ethical choices you were just discussing.
Pix
Joe: well I am starting from an assumption that certain thinkers of the 60s had an edge,namely Herbert Marcuse and C Wright Mills. So I have a standard that sees decline. Not to mention Albert Schweitzer who was saying civilization is already dead. For them civ is more than just science and industry it is ethical choices.
What ethical choices? See, this is why I understood you be be bemoaning the decline of Christianity; you see a decline in Christian ethics.
It makes it so easy when you don;t read the material. You can only think of ethics in tems of adultery right? You can't even understand how hurting people could be an ethical choice? If so then if pollution hurts people the allowing pollination when you could stop it could be an ethical choice. do you get it? So then there's an ethical dimension to social profiteroles us that too mind expanding for you?
Are there statistics that show murder rates are on the rise? Or theft or rape or other crimes that everyone agrees are wrong?
how us it you can conceive of murder as ethical but you can't see that social problems might invoke murder? You can;t figure out that keeping children in cages and neglecting their medical needs so they die is an ethical choice?
Or is this about an increase in children born out of wedlock, and similar decline in Christian values?\
again with the conventional understanding, can;t get your head out of Sunday school.
If you are right, civilisation has been declining for 60 years; it this is real there will be a big difference between 1960 and 2020 in whatever you see as the key parameter.
Yes it's rather obvious tats how we can have children in cages and everyone doesn't object, our value system is shot.
Joe: Ehrlich listed ecological devastation and he peaks of mass extinction. The United Nations has released a study involving hundreds of scientists showing that Earth is facing another mass extinction; one million species are threatened with extinction due to human activity. The study consists of a distillation of 15000 previous studies.[19]
See the problem is that you flip between different ideas of decline. This is very different to the decline in ethical choices you were just discussing.
the blemish that you did not read the avarice you used lazy conventional pld fashioned thinking and assuming I an idiot
My bad, I did not read that on the web page.
Though that is probably because you did not write it on the web page. The words "pollution", "hurt" and "ethical" are not in your chapter at all. Are you hoping readers will just guess what you are talking about?
Joe: how us it you can conceive of murder as ethical but you can't see that social problems might invoke murder? You can;t figure out that keeping children in cages and neglecting their medical needs so they die is an ethical choice?
Also the words "cage" and "medical" do not appear on that web page.
Are you measuring the decline in civilisation by the percentage increase in the number of children kept in cages? Good news for me is that civilisation is doing fine in Europe.
Joe: again with the conventional understanding, can;t get your head out of Sunday school.
I guess the the good thing here is that you understand that your view is NOT conventional. You now need to realise that that means you need to explain it clearly.
Joe: Yes it's rather obvious tats how we can have children in cages and everyone doesn't object, our value system is shot.
Unfortunately, human value systems revolve around the in-group, and this is often perceived as the nation. If it was children from your own nation in cages, there would be that outcry. Is this really a sign of the end of civilisation? No, it is a specific symptom of how people have been for ever.
So again it sounds like what you are bemoaning is people having a different set of morals and values to you.
Joe: I have a brilliant concept that rethinks the concept of civilization and you are too lazy and metered in conventionality to eve pay attention,
Well, you can either review the chapter you have written, and see if you present your "brilliant concept" well, or you can put it down to my inability to understand. It is your book.
Pix
Joe: It makes it so easy when you don;t read the material. You can only think of ethics in terms of adultery right? You can't even understand how hurting people could be an ethical choice? If so then if pollution hurts people the allowing pollination when you could stop it could be an ethical choice. do you get it? So then there's an ethical dimension to social profiteroles us that too mind expanding for you?
My bad, I did not read that on the web page.
;-)
Though that is probably because you did not write it on the web page. The words "pollution", "hurt" and "ethical" are not in your chapter at all. Are you hoping readers will just guess what you are talking about?
that was only a small part of the chapter, my chapters are 20-30 pages.can't include everything
Joe: how us it you can conceive of murder as ethical but you can't see that social problems might invoke murder? You can;t figure out that keeping children in cages and neglecting their medical needs so they die is an ethical choice?
Also the words "cage" and "medical" do not appear on that web page.
they don't need to. anyone can see that is an ethical issue. That should be the first thing you think of
Are you measuring the decline in civilisation by the percentage increase in the number of children kept in cages? Good news for me is that civilisation is doing fine in Europe.
My target audience is really American Christians. The American church should have been outraged that they were willing to rationalize Trump to me says american civilization is not in good shape.
Joe: again with the conventional understanding, can;t get your head out of Sunday school.
I guess the the good thing here is that you understand that your view is NOT conventional. You now need to realise that that means you need to explain it clearly.
sure but too log to publish the whole chapter, You did not read it, "What is this “civilization” that we are worried about? Oddly enough no one can say. In the great classic PBS documentary, Civilization, the Skin of Our Teeth, part 1, Kenneth Clark said “what is civilization? I don't know I can't define it in abstract terms, but I think I can recognize it when I see it and I'm looking at it now,” as he stared at the back of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris.[5] He spoke of comfort, order, creativity. For the purposes of this chapter I will assume loose broad terms for the definition: Civilization involves society but it is more than society it deals with the highest level of accomplishment. In the next chapter I will go into much greater detail in an attempt to define civilization. The essay is mainly concerned with Western civilization but I will explore the general concept of civilization itself."
Fair comment, but I can only go on what I have read.
Joe: they don't need to. anyone can see that is an ethical issue. That should be the first thing you think of
How?
Joe: My target audience is really American Christians. The American church should have been outraged that they were willing to rationalize Trump to me says american civilization is not in good shape.
Yeah, I may not be the best person to respond.
Joe: sure but too log to publish the whole chapter, You did not read it, "What is this “civilization” that we are worried about? Oddly enough no one can say. In the great classic PBS documentary, Civilization, the Skin of Our Teeth, part 1, Kenneth Clark said “what is civilization? I don't know I can't define it in abstract terms, but I think I can recognize it when I see it and I'm looking at it now,” as he stared at the back of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris.[5] He spoke of comfort, order, creativity. For the purposes of this chapter I will assume loose broad terms for the definition: Civilization involves society but it is more than society it deals with the highest level of accomplishment. In the next chapter I will go into much greater detail in an attempt to define civilization. The essay is mainly concerned with Western civilization but I will explore the general concept of civilization itself."
So not about ethics now...
Pix
Unfortunately, human value systems revolve around the in-group, and this is often perceived as the nation. If it was children from your own nation in cages, there would be that outcry. Is this really a sign of the end of civilization? No, it is a specific symptom of how people have been for ever.
In debate we cal that a should-would argent, If we wish to establish the ethics of a given act it does not do so to argue that people would not see it so that's irrelevant. If you want to reduce all ethical decision to social convention that in itself proves that civilization is dead, no way we can have a civilization based upon that..
So again it sounds like what you are bemoaning is people having a different set of morals and values to you.
yes like none at all. your whole idea of a set of moral values os momentary excuse for expediency that allows people to murder? that';s your big understanding of ethics? you would fail my class.
Joe: I have a brilliant concept that rethinks the concept of civilization and you are too lazy and metered in conventionality to eve pay attention,
Well, you can either review the chapter you have written, and see if you present your "brilliant concept" well, or you can put it down to my inability to understand. It is your book.
It is very helpful of you to give me sage advice it would help more if you acutely read it.