The Enemies Within: End Times Hucksters

My focus this time is one I have put together a whole e-book related to titled The Encyclopedia of End Times Fail. I could probably write several volumes. But the narrower focus is on those who fail to come about their erroneous eschatology honestly and use their failures as a way to sell merchandise.

I won't hesitate to name the name that exemplifies this the most: John Hagee. This crank has written enough books on the end times to build a formidable bomb shelter, and he's made enough wrong prognostications about the future to earn himself a dunce cap the size of the Pyramid of Giza. However, he doesn't care: Every time a book of his ends up vastly wrong, he extracts some of the material and puts it inside a new frame. Then he sells millions more copies to the same suckers who bought it last time. In the last several years, he has seen the end fomenting in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, the Y2K bug, the financial crash of 2008, and the blood moons.  Each time, he wrote a new book about. Each time, he was wrong.

It doesn't seem like Hagee ever learns his lesson. Or maybe he has: What he has learned is that there are enough ignorant people out there who will buy his books again and again no matter how many mistakes he makes. This is what makes him (and many others like him) such insidious enemies within the church: They are literally fleecing the sheep.




Comments

im-skeptical said…
"Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew the Huckster
Joe Hinman said…
JP I agree Hegee is the worst of a bad lot, televangelists. He dripps hatred and quests for power.
Joe Hinman said…
Skep that is only a problem if one is an inerentist. Besides the answer to what exactly was being refereed to is complicated but it's not what you think.
Joe Hinman said…
Mat 24 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

three different questions there


(1)“when will this [not one stone lefton another] happen ?

(2) what will be the sign of your coming?

(3)and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answer was "I don't know," to questions 2 and 3. The only real problem is he siad the generation wont pass away But given what question? Not pass away by when? question 2,or 3?

Jesus statement about the generation wont pass away was for the destruction of the Temple not the end of the age,That was the assumption of the disciples in their two questions.

Jesus' statement only applied to the destruction of the temple, that generation was alive to see it, John the Apostle lived so long.

im-skeptical said…
Jesus' statement only applied to the destruction of the temple, that generation was alive to see it, John the Apostle lived so long.
- Joe, I can read too. Don't try to bullshit me. He's talking about more than the destruction of the temple. He's talking about the so-called rapture. "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." That's what will supposedly come to pass before the current generation passes away.
Joe Hinman said…
Joe, I can read too. Don't try to bullshit me. He's talking about more than the destruction of the temple. He's talking about the so-called rapture. "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." That's what will supposedly come to pass before the current generation passes away.

that does not mean that part fits under the clause about this generation. that was the temple. the discipleship assumed all those things had to happen at once
JBsptfn said…
Skeppy: - Joe, I can read too. Don't try to bullshit me. He's talking about more than the destruction of the temple. He's talking about the so-called rapture. "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." That's what will supposedly come to pass before the current generation passes away.

Skep, Matthew 24 isn't about the Rapture.

Go back to verse three. When the disciples ask about the end of the world, the word world shouldn't be there. Age should be there instead. The temple destruction was supposed to be the end of the Jewish age.

That is why it says in 1 Peter 4:7 that the end of all things is near. It's talking about the end of the Jewish ways and customs, not the end of the world and Christ's return.

Also, in Acts 1, the disciples ask Christ if he will return in ten days and restore the kingdom to Israel. Christ told them that it wasn't up to them to know the times and the seasons that the father put in his own power.

im-skeptical said…
that does not mean that part fits under the clause about this generation. that was the temple. the discipleship assumed all those things had to happen at once
- I can read. "all these things" That's what it plainly says. Your bias prevents you from seeing what is right in front of your eyes.
im-skeptical said…
JbSpitfire,

You are just as biased as Joe. Most people understand it pretty much the same way I do - unless they have tried to rationalize what is says with the fact that it didn't come to pass. Then, they come up with all kinds of bizarre explanations. But the words are quite clear.
Joe Hinman said…
Jesus says God does not give us to know and everyone says "Ok I figure it it out based up-on that saying."
Joe Hinman said…
im-skeptical said...
that does not mean that part fits under the clause about this generation. that was the temple. the discipleship assumed all those things had to happen at once
- I can read. "all these things" That's what it plainly says. Your bias prevents you from seeing what is right in front of your eyes.

that's the redaction
Joe Hinman said…
You are just as biased as Joe. Most people understand it pretty much the same way I do - unless they have tried to rationalize what is says with the fact that it didn't come to pass. Then, they come up with all kinds of bizarre explanations. But the words are quite clear.

Most people are not scholars. I am not an internist,why are you?
im-skeptical said…
that's the redaction
- That was the older party line of the Christian church. It was only after it failed to occur that they had to change the narrative. Of course, that's just one of the many parts of the Christian belief system that evolved over time.
Joe Hinman said…
that's the redaction
- That was the older party line of the Christian church. It was only after it failed to occur that they had to change the narrative. Of course, that's just one of the many parts of the Christian belief system that evolved over time.

You have no textual evidence to back u[ your misunderstanding. My argument assumes the redaction got it wrong. So you are not telling us anything,but you are making the stupid mistake of assuming that mistakes in the redaction equal mistakes in the faith,
Joe Hinman said…
You still missed the point genius, the point was that the fall of the temple is what he referred to in swaying this generation will not pass away,He didn't say it would be the end of the age. He actually said he didn't know.
im-skeptical said…
You have no textual evidence to back u[ your misunderstanding. My argument assumes the redaction got it wrong. So you are not telling us anything,but you are making the stupid mistake of assuming that mistakes in the redaction equal mistakes in the faith
- And you are making the stupid mistake of claiming that Matthew doesn't say what it says.
Joe Hinman said…
And you are making the stupid mistake of claiming that Matthew doesn't say what it says.

where does Matthew say that this generation will not pass away until the world ends?

Matthew 24:3:
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

that is two questions not one. (1) when will this happen? (2)and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” those are two different questions.so the whole issue boils down to what did he mean when he said no 2:"when will this happen?"

what is "this?" in that chapter it means the thing he said first about one stone will not be left upon another,that's what he was saying when ask him the question, when will the temple be destroyed?


"this" whathe justsaidin chater 24:1-2:--"24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Because they could not conceive of Judaism with out the temple they assumed these would be at the manse time. But Jesus did not say this generation will not pass away until they see the answer to both questions,he was probably speaking of no 1 and they assumed it was both,

the proof is he says no one knows the end of the world. why would he say this generation will not pass away util these things happen if he says no one knows when they will happen

two questions two answers makes more sense
im-skeptical said…
where does Matthew say that this generation will not pass away until the world ends?
- 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Your problem. Joe, is that you always ignore whatever doesn't fit your argument. You're only talking about verse 3. I'm talking about what it says in the context of things that will happen within the current generation. Even if the "distress" is only the destruction of the temple, the rapture occurs immediately afterward. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS.


two questions two answers makes more sense
- Reading the whole thing makes more sense than selectively choosing the parts you need to make your case.
Joe Hinman said…
the problem you are trying to use infrequency and liberalism to hold the Bible to a ridiculous standard that Modern scholarship abandoned about 150 years ago.

I've already argued that there is a reason why should suspect that they reordered the answer. You have not answered that argument you are merely asserting that it;s not there everyone has to be a fundie,

(1) Day and hour unknown
(chapter 24)
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

(2) He gave good reason to believe that he did not expect the end to be in the lifetime of those arouind him.


"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.... [here is the point]"

14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

with your standard of materialism he meant the whole world so he knew they wren't going to do that in the life life time of anyone there.


(3) Given that it becomes pretty obvious that when he said these things He didn't mean the end of the world but was referring to the question about the temple.The first thing he says is to refer to the temple as "these things"

v2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

everyone agrees he's referring to the temple at that point.
J. P Holding said…
Remember IMS is a parody, so he's a perfect parody of a formerly deluded dispensationalist who would still think any other reading is heresy.
im-skeptical said…
v2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

everyone agrees he's referring to the temple at that point.


- Except for one little thing: That's not what Matthew actually says. "All these things" comes right after a description of what happens in the rapture. Everyone does NOT agree with your interpretation. It says what it says. In fact, the only way to read it the way you do is in light of the knowledge that what is says didn't come to pass. So you have no choice but to interpret it another way, or admit that your scripture is wrong, and obviously you could never do the latter.
Joe Hinman said…
Except for one little thing: That's not what Matthew actually says. "All these things" comes right after a description of what happens in the rapture.

that is absolutely wrong I quoted the passage more than once above. your reading comprehension sux. you don't even know what you are reading, he speaks of the temple,l see above.


Everyone does NOT agree with your interpretation. It says what it says.


If you impose the materialistic standard we have to be literal in understanding that he said it wont happen until the Gospel is preached in the whole world, meaning new world

In fact, the only way to read it the way you do is in light of the knowledge that what is says didn't come to pass. So you have no choice but to interpret it another way, or admit that your scripture is wrong, and obviously you could never do the latter.

I gave a three point analysis Priming why we must understand my reading as the best approach you have not even mentioned it, totally dropped the major argument. You have not answered argument. You lose You did not answer the augment so you lose the argument,


so typical of you, you don't use logic you think just stating your opinion is the same as proof, it;sot not, Proves nothing,



11/30/2018 08:44:00 AM
im-skeptical said…
that is absolutely wrong I quoted the passage more than once above. your reading comprehension sux. you don't even know what you are reading, he speaks of the temple,l see above.
- You quoted a verse out of context. And I quoted an extended passage that actually contains the verse "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." I think you have a problem with comprehension.

If you impose the materialistic standard we have to be literal in understanding that he said it wont happen until the Gospel is preached in the whole world, meaning new world
- I agree that the bible contains many contradictory statements. But the one in question says something different from what your faith mandates.

I gave a three point analysis Priming why we must understand my reading as the best approach
- As I said, your analyses are driven by your belief. You have no choice but to accept that kind of analysis. If you don't, it would amount to an admission that your scriptures are not consistent. But you are blind to that. If one is able to step outside the faith, it becomes easy to see the glaring inconsistencies.
Joe Hinman said…
Meta.
that is absolutely wrong I quoted the passage more than once above. your reading comprehension sux. you don't even know what you are reading, he speaks of the temple,l see above.

- You quoted a verse out of context. And I quoted an extended passage that actually contains the verse "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." I think you have a problem with comprehension.

that is ignorance,everyone knows the context is the question about the temple, the first question he is asked he says 'do you not see these stones?' those are the stones of the temple

v3 proceeds all talk of end times it says: "Mat 24 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
.

where did Jesus leave? the temple.

what other stones could he have meant?


If you impose the materialistic standard we have to be literal in understanding that he said it wont happen until the Gospel is preached in the whole world, meaning new world

- I agree that the bible contains many contradictory statements. But the one in question says something different from what your faith mandates.

you have not demonstrated that so far

I gave a three point analysis Priming why we must understand my reading as the best approach


- As I said, your analyses are driven by your belief. You have no choice but to accept that kind of analysis.

I just demonstrated that the context is the discussion of the temple you have nothing to say about the logic I gave you have lost argument, merely denying or refusing to believable is not an answer, you can't deal with the logic,


If you don't, it would amount to an admission that your scriptures are not consistent. But you are blind to that. If one is able to step outside the faith, it becomes easy to see the glaring inconsistencies.


what's the probe with Scriptures not being consistent if you are not an inerrencist?, Your theological assumptions are ,old fashioned you are a fundie,
Joe Hinman said…
im-skeptical said...
Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.

12/01/2018 09:14:00 AM

what pompous atheist bull shit, you have just illustrated for us how you don't use resonin your assertions, you don't use it in argument!

Holy Irony Batman!
Joe Hinman said…
you have not proved a contradiction I proved it's a problem with redaction.
im-skeptical said…
you have not demonstrated that so far
- Except for the fact that I quoted the extended text that says what it says.

what pompous atheist bull shit, you have just illustrated for us how you don't use resonin your assertions, you don't use it in argument!
- I don't suppose you noticed that I was quoting a Christian preacher. Of course you didn't.
Joe Hinman said…
you have not demonstrated that so far
- Except for the fact that I quoted the extended text that says what it says.

No until you deal with my analysis you have not said anything,

what pompous atheist bull shit, you have just illustrated for us how you don't use reson in your assertions, you don't use it in argument!

- I don't suppose you noticed that I was quoting a Christian preacher. Of course you didn't.


so what? If Christian preacher was arguing with me I would say the same thing deal with my arguments,



(1) Day and hour unknown
(chapter 24)
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

(2) He gave good reason to believe that he did not expect the end to be in the lifetime of those arouind him.


"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.... [here is the point]"

14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

with your standard of materialism he meant the whole world so he knew they wren't going to do that in the life life time of anyone there.


(3) Given that it becomes pretty obvious that when he said these things He didn't mean the end of the world but was referring to the question about the temple.The first thing he says is to refer to the temple as "these things"

v2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

everyone agrees he's referring to the temple at that point.
im-skeptical said…
No until you deal with my analysis you have not said anything
- You make three points:

(1) Day and hour unknown
- He said that and he sait it would be within the current generation.

(2) He gave good reason to believe that he did not expect the end to be in the lifetime of those arouind him.
- This involves preaching the word to the whole world. The known world at that time was relatively small, and it would certainly be possible for this to happen within a few decades. Look at the spread of Christianity.

(3) Given that it becomes pretty obvious that when he said these things He didn't mean the end of the world but was referring to the question about the temple.
- You refer to is use of the term "these things", as in these things (the bricks of the temple) will be destroyed. But in the later reference he says "these things will come to pass. That doesn't mean bricks will come to pass. It means the events described. Bricks are not events. Events are not bricks. The two instances of "these things" are clearly not referring to the same thing.


so what? If Christian preacher was arguing with me I would say the same thing deal with my arguments
- Tell the truth. You thought those were the words of an atheist. Nevertheless, this has been a common theme among religious leaders for many centuries. It is even found in the Catholic Catechism.

Joe Hinman said…

Blogger im-skeptical said...
No until you deal with my analysis you have not said anything

- You make three points:

(1) Day and hour unknown

- He said that and he sait it would be within the current generation.

He was only speaking of the temple when he refereed to the generation

(2) He gave good reason to believe that he did not expect the end to be in the lifetime of those arouind him.

- This involves preaching the word to the whole world. The known world at that time was relatively small, and it would certainly be possible for this to happen within a few decades. Look at the spread of Christianity.

It had not happened yet by AD 70 besides that selective liberalism

(3) Given that it becomes pretty obvious that when he said these things He didn't mean the end of the world but was referring to the question about the temple.

- You refer to is use of the term "these things", as in these things (the bricks of the temple) will be destroyed. But in the later reference he says "these things will come to pass.

that's a reference to the temple

That doesn't mean bricks will come to pass. It means the events described. Bricks are not events. Events are not bricks. The two instances of "these things" are clearly not referring to the same thing.

yes it means the destruction of the temple but that do not mean he thought the temple and the end of the world were the same event. The redactors thought they had to be the same event so they mixed up the answers


so what? If Christian preacher was arguing with me I would say the same thing deal with my arguments

- Tell the truth. You thought those were the words of an atheist. Nevertheless, this has been a common theme among religious leaders for many centuries. It is even found in the Catholic Catechism.

One the main things that makes you appear so stupid is your presumptuous stupidity in underrating your elopements,I know more than you. I was an atheist. I know the atheist mind, i know it well,,


12/02/2018 02:56:00 PM
Joe Hinman said…
when he is describing bricks not left upon one another that is a way of referring to events, those are events that will level the bricks, I was soundcheck I'll never get over it,

I have to watch Sesame Street to clam myself,
im-skeptical said…
Try reading the bible. Don't read it with the beliefs you have been taught as a filter for what it means. Just read it.

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