Why Christian Theism Is Still Almost Certainly True: A Follow-Up Reply to Cale Nearing
A couple
of weeks ago, readers of this blog may recall, I posted "Why Christian
Theism Is Almost Certainly True: A Reply to Cale Nearing."[1] Though offered in good
faith to meet the challenge he issued to Christian apologists like
me, that reply was not well received by Cale Nearing – which should really
surprise no one. It's his argument that
was under scrutiny, after all.[2] And as I mentioned in the
comment box of that article, after posting it I was quite ready to abandon the subject
and move on to another. Cale, however, asked me to give his argument another
look and reconsider the prospect that theism is indeed "almost certainly
false." At Cale's request, then, I will here revisit the argument, taking
into account his five main criticisms in order. His rebuttal begins:
First, there is no question that A1, A2, and A3 are at least
coherent (possible) in the logic in use. I'm glad you don't actually try to
pursue an outright elimination of them, but you then move on to assign them low
priors for completely arbitrary reasons: a clear mistake, which leaves your
response clearly irrational.
For
readers unfamiliar with all this: A1, A2, and A3 are what Cale refers to as
Random Universe Generators (RUG's), which he presents as alternative hypotheses
to theism. Now is it really beyond
question that these RUG's are coherent? Well, it's not as if the coherence
of an entity that is (1) metaphysically necessary, (2) mindless, and (3)
capable of generating a life-permitting universe which includes minds, is self-evident. According to many theologians, for
any being to be necessary (whose
essence is existence, the ground of all other being) would require it to be "Pure
Act" (actus purus), which would
require it to be omnipotent,[3] which
would require it to be omniscient, which would require it to be – or at least
"have" – a mind. A RUG that is both necessary and mindless, then, is
arguably incoherent. A similar argument could be made in reference to the
notion of a mindless being giving
rise to mindful, i.e., rational and intelligent
beings.[4]
Honestly
I don't recall "assigning" low priors to these RUG's. (Nor for that
matter do I believe that any response involving a "clear mistake" is
clearly irrational. If making mistakes – even mistakes that are obvious to
others – is irrational, I'm afraid we're all doomed to a life of irrationality.)
I did suggest then, as now (above), that RUG's appear incoherent. Additionally
I suggested that the postulation of RUG's specifically as a defeater for theism
"seems completely ad hoc." Thus: Given that coherent hypotheses are
antecedently more probable than seemingly incoherent alternatives, and given
that serious explanatory hypotheses are antecedently more probable than ad hoc
hypotheses devised for the sole purpose of defeating them, it would be rational
for these non-arbitrary reasons alone to assign a higher prior to theism than to
RUG's.
Second, the A hypotheses say nothing about multiple universes,
and (further) multiple universes are not actually a more complex hypothesis
than Theism. Complexity is actually a good way to look at priors, but if we
actually take this route, we can show that my demand for equivalent priors
becomes inarguable: both Theism and A1, for instance, are hypotheses which
cannot be fully specified in any finite computable string, which means that
they both actually have infinite complexity (and, hence, must have equivalent
priors).
Here
I may have simply misunderstood, not just what Cale's argument entails, but
what a certain technical definition of "complexity" might entail. In
that case I stand corrected. Even so, my appeal was not to Kolmogorov
complexity or algorithmic complexity, but to a more time-honored understanding
that a hypothesis invoking prima facie fewer ontological or explanatory elements
is prima facie less complex, hence epistemically preferable, than one invoking
more. Some 600 years before Kolmogorov developed algorithmic complexity, William
of Ockham famously championed the concept now known as Ockham's Razor, the
general principle that in the formation of hypotheses entities that should not
be "multiplied beyond necessity." On that score theism appears more
epistemically promising than a multiverse hypothesis – or for that matter, an imaginative distribution of
ad hoc RUG hypotheses.[5]
Thus
Cale's assumption of equivalent priors ignores certain points of background
knowledge which suggest a higher prior for theism – and which are not equally entailed by any RUG
hypothesis. For example, theism entails the deliberate creation of the universe
by God. Take two hypothetical beings, each of which is presumed "metaphysically
necessary" and each of which has the power to create a universe, but one
has various purposes and intentions while the other has no purposes or intentions
whatsoever. Even assuming equal prior probability of God and a given RUG simply
existing, the probability of an omnipotent
God intentionally creating our
universe – i.e., directing his power to actualize
the possibility of creation
– has to be much higher a priori than the probability of a mindless RUG accidentally creating our universe. In that case Cale needs to explain why P(T) is not substantially
higher than P(A1), or even substantially higher than P(A1 v A2 v A3).
Third:
the RUG hypotheses are ad hoc, but this doesn't actually matter. Theism is ad
hoc. If this were grounds for dismissing A1, A2, and A3, it would also be
grounds for dismissing Theism.
Okay, I
will concede here that in one sense that's a reasonable objection. In terms of “predictive
power,” theism doesn't really compare with, say, a scientific theory like General
Relativity. Here theists like Wilko van Holten agree with Cale: "So it
would be fair to say that theism is manifestly ad hoc; it merely explains retrospectively, not predictively."[6] However, certain factors
tend to dull the force of this objection:
First
of all, the celebrated cases often referred to in connection with the ad
hoc-ness requirement – like the theories of Newton and Einstein – are not
entirely accurate historically. As some have pointed out, these theories were initially
accepted on the basis of their ability to account for known observations, that
is, for their ability to solve ‘old problems,’ and acquired universal reception
long before the required confirmation of the relevant predictions was given….Further,
the ad hoc-ness requirement is too restrictive to be applied rigorously to all
theories for there are some well-established scientific theories that do (as
yet) without confirmed predictions. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural
selection is a case in point: this theory is also manifestly ad hoc, for it was
probably designed with the facts in mind, as a response to them. Finally, the
rule against ad hoc-ness does not provide the hoped for means of demarcating
scientific from non-scientific theories (Popper). As Banner argues, the
criterion ‘fails to solve the very problem it was designed to solve, for just
as any number of theories may fit with known observations, so any number of
theories may yield confirmed predictions.’"[7]
Swinburne
argues more directly to the point,
The
suggestion that hypotheses must predict successfully…if they are to be rendered
probable by evidence is certainly not implied by Bayes's theorem. It is a
matter of indifference, as regards that theorem, whether e is observed before or after the formulation of h….. Newton's theory of motion was
judged to be highly probable on the evidence available in the late seventeenth
century, even though it made no immediately testable predictions.[8]
Theism is
not only, as previously mentioned, a long-standing and altogether serious hypothesis[9] offered to explain the
origin of our universe and life within it, but is supported by various lines of
physical and propositional evidence (evidence nowhere specified in Cale's
argument other than by the letter E in his various formulations). Theism is further
a stand-alone hypothesis, in that it bears no immediate relation to other
theories. To the contrary an ad hoc
hypothesis, at least in the sense in which I refer to it, is an auxiliary hypothesis devised specifically
to insulate an existing claim or theory from falsification or refutation. Ptolemy’s
geocentric invocation of epicycles to account for observed retrograde motions
of planets is the classic historical case in point. In our case, RUG's are
postulated for the express purpose of reducing the probability of theism, thereby
rescuing atheism from the implications of fine-tuning and other forms of
evidence for theism.
Fourth: your analogy to the shape the earth is not an analogy at
all, and it reveals that you didn't actually understand the argument. The cone,
cylinder, and cube hypotheses make clear predictions that we can use to falsify
those hypotheses: the likelihoods they offer for our available evidence do not
even begin to approach the likelihood that the sphere hypotheses offers. This
issue of likelihoods is something I spend a fair bit of time talking about in
my argument, but you seem to have missed it entirely.
Here is
the crux of the matter, I think. Of course Cale is correct to argue that the
cone, cylinder, and cube hypotheses do not really compare with the sphere
hypothesis in terms of likelihood, P(E|H),
because the other three do not have nearly the same power to predict the
evidence. But as I was careful to clarify in a footnote, that's just the point.
In principle, evidence serves to differentiate among hypotheses otherwise
assumed to be equiprobable, so that we can update our beliefs, or at least
better evaluate the probability of our beliefs being true, on the evidence. This
is the very purpose of Bayes'
theorem.
The reason
the "shape of the earth" analogy (or parody, as he says) works is
that it, like Cale's argument, presupposes that the only relevant source of "evidence"
is equivalent to, or else implicitly contained within, the assumptions used to
derive the prior probability distribution in the first place.[10] Taken as a general
principle, that presupposition turns out to be demonstrably false, as the
“shape of the earth” analogy makes clear. Similarly, the fact that T, A1, A2
and A3 are all equally possible does
not entail that these hypotheses are equally probable. Again, likelihood per Cale’s argument is not a function
of physical or propositional evidence given theism – the sort of thing normally
meant by "evidence" – but rather the evidence is presumed to be no
more than a function of Cale's contrived probability distribution.
Why then,
someone might ask, would anyone not
want to evaluate evidence from cosmology, fine-tuning, consciousness, the
resurrection of Jesus, etc., in assessing the likelihood of the evidence on
theism relative to competing hypotheses? That leads us to Cale's final
objection:
Fifth:
Swinburne's attempt at a Bayesian argument fails trivially specifically because
he does not understand how alternative hypotheses affect the relationship
between the prior and the normalizing constant. He's not wrong that some things
do constitute evidence for Theism, thanks to theism's retrodictions, but what
he misses is that there are any number of alternatives which make the same
retrodictions (if we limit our hypothesis space to those hypotheses which
acknowledge common human knowledge, then there is no evidence for Theism at
all). This is why a hypothesis based on pure retrodiction is doomed to failure,
and this is indeed why theism fails. Swinburne doesn't understand the logic, as
my argument illustrates nicely. The evidences he offers cannot in principle
pull Theism out if its hole, because there will always be other similarly ad
hoc hypotheses making the same retrodictions that Swinburne calls upon for
evidence.
According
to Cale, no evaluation of the evidence on theism relative to competing
hypotheses is necessary, because theism depends entirely on
"retrodictions," and "there are any number of alternatives which
make the same retrodictions." We've already addressed prediction versus
retrodiction in the context of ad-hocness. Clearly the fact that competing
hypotheses often make claims on the same store of evidence does not render them
equally probable. Otherwise we would have to conclude that evolution by natural
selection, theistic evolution, young-earth creationism, old-earth creationism, and
intelligent design hypotheses are all equally probable, because they all
retrodict from the same set of available facts. Likewise juries could almost never
rationally reach a verdict, because the same facts in evidence are subject to radically
different interpretations by the prosecution and the defense.
Essentially Cale's prior probabilities and
subsequent calculations are based on the presumption that the evidence is no
better for theism than it is for any number of alternatives. Now that may be an
argument worth consideration in its own right, but it hardly qualifies as a true
premise in a valid argument to the effect that theism is no more probable than
alternative hypotheses! The very fact that these hypotheses are mutually exclusive suggests the
possibility that they do not predict or explain the evidence with equal force,
which is why I asked in the previous post, “Does any rational thinker honestly
believe that consciousness is not vastly more probable on theism than on the
mindless RUG hypothesis?” With all due respect to Cale (and he's due some
respect, for sure), his argument is starting to look like an elaborate exercise
in question-begging.
"Swinburne's
attempt at a Bayesian argument,” says Cale, “fails trivially
specifically because he does not understand how alternative hypotheses affect
the relationship between the prior and the normalizing constant." But that
seems to be just what Swinburne addressed concerning the prior probability of
theism against the disjunction of many or limited gods. Given that Swinburne,
Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at Oxford, specializes in philosophy of
science and is known particularly for his use of Bayes' theorem to rationally
justify inductive inferences, it is Cale's burden to justify the claim that
Swinburne lacks understanding of how Bayesian inference works. For now I see no
reason to think that Swinburne's Bayesian argument "fails trivially." He concludes:
Once
we understand your misunderstanding of the logic, Don, as well as Swinburne's,
it becomes clear that my conclusion is indeed correct: Theism cannot be
rationally affirmed, and only by eschewing the logic of probability theory – or
simply failing to understand it, as you and Swinburne obviously have – can one
conclude otherwise.
That is simply a non sequitur. Even if I, along with Swinburne, William Lane
Craig and every Christian apologist who ever lived, completely, hopelessly
misunderstood the logic behind Cale's argument, it would not follow that his
conclusion is correct. Until he can explain why all hypotheses
should be considered equally probable regardless of the evidence, or
alternatively, why evidence should be considered a function of probability rather
than the other way around, I have no reason to believe that my arguments for
Christian theism given the evidence are not sound. In that case I have
reason to believe that Christian theism is still almost certainly true.
[1] Don McIntosh,
"Why Christian Theism Is Almost Certainly True: A Reply to Cale
Nearing," http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2017/05/why-christian-theism-is-almost.html.
I want to thank Cale for presenting his argument and challenging Christian
apologists like me to answer it. I have learned a few things in the process –
always a good thing – and I appreciate the opportunity to explain why Christian
theism is almost certainly true.
[2] Readers again may find Cale’s argument in
full at https://m.facebook.com/groups/870345023006950/permalink/1501101383264641/?__tn__=R (requires logging in to Facebook and
joining the "Reasonable Faith Debunked" group).
[3] "Omnipotence follows upon God's essence as pure act, having within Himself
His own fullness of actuality. Since one thing is able to cause another insofar
as it is itself in act, God alone is capable of giving existence to created
things." – "Omnipotence," New
Catholic Encyclopedia (The Gale Group, 2003), http://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/omnipotence.
[4] See for example
Victor Reppert, "The Argument from Reason," http://www.lewissociety.org/reason.php.
[5] As mentioned in my
previous post, Richard Swinburne suggests that "the hypothesis that there
are many gods or limited gods" should be a singular alternative hypothesis
rather than a host of hypothetical competitors: "I have argued that the hypothesis of theism
is a very simple hypothesis indeed, simpler than hypotheses of many or limited
gods…. In that case, theism is going to be more probable than…the disjunction
of hypotheses of many or limited gods; and there is much less reason why they
should bring about a universe at all or one of our character – they may not be
able to do so, and not being perfectly good may not have much reason to do so
(unless we complicate these hypotheses further by building into them the
requisite propensity)." – The Existence of God (New York: Oxford,
2004), p. 340.
[6] Wilko van Holten, "Theism
and Inference to the Best Explanation," Ars Disputandi, Volume 2,
Issue 1, November 8, 2002, pp. 262-281. van Holten goes on to argue that
despite this caveat, theism has considerable explanatory power: “If a theory’s
explanatory power is foremost a measure of its observational success, i.e. of
how well it accounts for known observations, and not necessarily of its
predictive success, the argument in favour of theism will largely depend on its
power to do justice to our experience of the world in the widest possible sense
of that term.”
[7] van Holten, p. 273.
[8] Swinburne, p. 69.
[9] That's on an
"evidentialist" apologetic, anyway. I fully sympathize with fellow defenders
of the faith who maintain that belief in God is properly basic, or that theism
is better argued along deductive lines, or that Bayes' theorem does not really
apply to metaphysical questions. See Joe's recent article, "Bayes' Theorem
and the Probability of God: No Dice!", http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2017/05/bayes-theorem-and-probability-of-god-no.html.
[10] An example of “built-in” non-evidentiary assumptions used
to determine not only priors but likelihoods would be, to paraphrase Cale for
brevity, “A1: There exists a RUG so characterized that the probability that it
generates a universe including observational evidence E is equal to L [or P(E|T)] + (1-L)/2.” So we know that likelihood for A1,
P(E|A1), is L + (1-L)/2. The justification for this hypothesis? It’s a possible alternative. And since there
are in his scenario three such RUG hypotheses and one theistic hypothesis, the
prior probability of each is “approximately equal to 1/4.”
Comments
First, the RUGs at the center of A1, A2, and A3 have no obligation to be coherent within an elaborate metaphysical scheme like that in which Aquinas's "Actus Purus" is a concept.
If you want to contend that A1, A2, and A3 are incoherent, you need to actually prove that they are internally inconsistent, which you haven't done. Until you do that, your first objection here falls flat, and is not really worth further discussion.
Second, you mischaracterized my alternatives as "multiverse" hypotheses. They are not. If we use Occam's criterion, a simple count of entities, then Theism, A1, A2, and A3 are all *exactly* as complex as one another, as each involves only one single ontological entity. Thus, your second objection also falls flat.
Third, you wrote:
"it, like Cale's argument, presupposes that the only relevant source of "evidence" is equivalent to, or else implicitly contained within, the assumptions used to derive the prior probability distribution in the first place."
This is such a ridiculous straw man of my argument that it hardly warrants more than a brief mention. Of course, an no point in my argument do I state, claim, or suggest any such thing, much less "presuppose" it.
All in all, you very plainly still have no idea how the argument functions, much less how to go about attempting to rebut it. It is pointless to rebut straw men, so I suppose I can only hope that you actually take my advice this time and put some effort into actually understanding the argument before pretending that you have some response to it.
This post has next to nothing to do with the argument I actually presented.
this is the same guy who says you don't need new information after the prior when every sing published source I've seen on Bayes says you do. I have never seen anyone who says you don't.' Cale deals in mystification of knowledge. He's the big expert, he knows all the facts he's a scientist, a priest of knowledge,keeper of flame. He has the secret knowledge only geniuses can knkow. that's why he wont answer questions you are suppose to take his word for it all.
Quote
What is known by people who use Bayes’s theorem to advantage is that there are only certain conditions when it is appropriate to use it. Even those conditions can sound a bit onerous: In general, its use is warranted when a problem warrants its use, e.g. when:
•The sample is partitioned into a set of mutually exclusive events { A1, A2, . . . , An }.
•Within the sample space, there exists an event B, for which P(B) > 0.
•The analytical goal is to compute a conditional probability of the form: P ( Ak | B ).
•You know at least one of the two sets of probabilities described below. •P( Ak ∩ B ) for each Ak
•P( Ak ) and P( B | Ak ) for each Ak ...The key to the right use of Bayes is that it can be useful in calculating conditional probabilities: that is, the probability that event A occurs given that event B has occurred. Normally such probabilities are used to forecast whether an event is likely to occur...
So far, you are thinking, this is the kind of thing you would use for weather, rocket launches, roulette tables and divorces since we tend to think of conditional probability as an event that has not happened but can be predicted to happen, or not happen, based on existing, verifiable occurrences. How can it be useful in determining whether events “actually” transpired in the past, that is, when the sample field itself consists of what has already occurred (or not occurred) and when B is the probability of it having happened? Or how it can be useful in dealing with events claimed to be sui generis since the real world conditions would lack both precedence and context?[1]...[close quore]
1 R. Joseph Hoffmann, "proving what?," The New Oxonian: Religion and culture for the intellectually impatientPosted on May 29, 2012 Blog, URL:
https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/proving-what/ (accessed 10/30/150)
following graduation from Harvard Divinity School and the University of Oxford, R. Joseph Hoffmann was tutor in Greek at Keble College and Senior Scholar at St Cross College, Oxford, and Wissenschaftlicher Assistant in Patristics and Classical Studies at the University of Heidelberg. He's an editor of Sources of the Jesus Tradition, Carrier is a contributor.
Hoffmann tells an anecdote that his former student was speaking of Carrierer's assertion thqat Bayes can be used "where no 'real world data and conditions' can be said to apply." The Student remarked, "Is this insistence [Carrier’s] of trying to invoke Bayes’ theorem in such contexts a manifestation of some sort of Math or Physics envy? Or is it due to the fact that forcing mathematics into one’s writings apparently confers on them some form of ‘scientific’ legitimacy?"[5]
At this point Hoffmann backs my assertion that Bayes, when applied to an area of belief for which we have little real data is entirely subjective. It's a matter of guessing and prejudice as to what basic assumptions to make. As he says plug in different values you get different answers. The next point he makes backs up my point about the illusion of technique. That is the point that it's a gimmick, he's trying to lend scientific credibility to his opinions. "Do there exist good reasons to suppose the methods commonly used in different areas that have grown over time are somehow fatally flawed if they are not currently open to some form of mathematization?"(Emphasis mine)
Interesting, Joe, that you have *yet* to actually quote any "expert" saying anything that disagrees with anything I present in my argument. H
No that is wrong Mr Mountebank,cause you said you don't need new information with Bayes,and I quoted five people who say you do, 2 of then are experts,m the other three know at least as much as you do,you have not told me your credentials. what makes you an expert?
all of them contradict what you said,
None of your quotes have disagreed with this at all, and if they had, they'd have been wrong.
>>First, the RUGs at the center of A1, A2, and A3 have no obligation to be coherent within an elaborate metaphysical scheme like that in which Aquinas's "Actus Purus" is a concept.
If you want to contend that A1, A2, and A3 are incoherent, you need to actually prove that they are internally inconsistent, which you haven't done. Until you do that, your first objection here falls flat, and is not really worth further discussion<<
As you have described them the RUG's take on the very characteristics of the Deity within Aquinas' scheme that would require them to have a mind. Yet you say they are mindless. Hence RUG's are arguably incoherent.
But as for who has to prove what: Your very ambitious claim is that theism is "almost certainly false," a claim which carries a commensurate burden of proof. I am countering that because RUG's at least appear to be incoherent prima facie, their prior probability should be lowered accordingly – and of course if they are found to be genuinely incoherent, their probability is 0. In either case the claim – drawn from the notion that RUG's and God are equally probable a priori – that theism is "almost certainly false," does not meet the heavy burden of proof required of it.
>>Second, you mischaracterized my alternatives as "multiverse" hypotheses. They are not. If we use Occam's criterion, a simple count of entities, then Theism, A1, A2, and A3 are all *exactly* as complex as one another, as each involves only one single ontological entity. Thus, your second objection also falls flat.<<
We already addressed this in our FB discussion. I admittedly, mistakenly mischaracterized your alternatives in my first reply to your argument, then explained why in the second. (The "I stand corrected" part should have told you I wasn't merely pressing the argument further.) As I said on FB, "The whole segment about Occam's razor was included only to explain what sense of complexity I actually had in mind when I mistakenly described A1 as a multiverse in my initial reply. It was merely an explanation of my previous understanding."
I do maintain, however, that while you may not have "multiplied entities without necessity" within a given alternative hypothesis, you did multiply ad hoc alternative hypotheses themselves without necessity (arbitrarily) within your argument.
"it, like Cale's argument, presupposes that the only relevant source of "evidence" is equivalent to, or else implicitly contained within, the assumptions used to derive the prior probability distribution in the first place."
This is such a ridiculous straw man of my argument that it hardly warrants more than a brief mention. Of course, an no point in my argument do I state, claim, or suggest any such thing, much less "presuppose" it.<<
Protest all you like, but the dependence of evidence on your prior probability distribution (rather than vice-versa) does seem to follow from the formulations in your argument. In any case by your own admission the argument does not permit the evidence itself to determine, or update, probabilities. As you've said elsewhere, "The argument works for any set of evidence E." As far as I'm concerned the fact, if it is a fact, that your argument "works" regardless of what the evidence itself may be, doesn't actually speak well for your argument.
>>All in all, you very plainly still have no idea how the argument functions, much less how to go about attempting to rebut it. It is pointless to rebut straw men, so I suppose I can only hope that you actually take my advice this time and put some effort into actually understanding the argument before pretending that you have some response to it.<<
Oh, I seriously doubt I'm that far off the mark. I think you just don't like watching your arguments taken apart. Most people don't.
Now I realize I'm just a lowly Internet apologist, but I'm generally informed and educated enough to at least follow these sorts of arguments. If I truly cannot understand your argument (and I suspect you're simply obfuscating there), you probably have not explained yourself very well. Again I have no problem with the math operations, but your argument also touches upon theology and philosophy, which I hope you will agree are not your areas of expertise.
But here's another thought. Since I'm just a lowly Internet apologist, why don't you submit your argument to a reputable, relevant journal for publication? I'm guessing the review process would be an eye-opening experience for you, not to mention that your argument would be much improved.
That should probably be revised to read,
"...the argument does not permit the evidence to variously determine, or update, probabilities for the various hypotheses."
Good point, Joe. Cale's a smart guy, but he's really in no position to summarily dismiss the work of genuine authorities on the subject.
I have not.
Joe has simply failed to produce even one authorities who actually disagree with anything I have done in my argument.
he also said:
Cale said...
6/05/2017 03:14:00 PM
Interesting, Joe, that you have *yet* to actually quote any "expert" saying anything that disagrees with anything I present in my argument. H
I quoted ive guys who say you have to have to have new information coming in,two of them were experts, Mathematicians,the other three were knowledgeable. He never answered it in any debate of NFL or NDT you lose an argument when you don't Nasser it,
\where is his quote by an expert disagreeing with my views?
where did you get your Phd>
where do you teach?
I did y doctoral work at UT Dallas.
thats like homer Simpson saying in prayer: "if it be ty will give me no sign"
Obviously it's easier to not see a sign and take it as permission to do something to get a sign and take it as forbidding an action.
Since you fail to provide any information about new inform used in your calculations you fail to win your case. That is the point the guys I quote all say you have to do that, you don't do it.
That's just not an objection.
what stupid ploy,How could you get new evidence of God if there is no God? you can't have new information coming in telling you there's no God,If you have info telling you about God then why argue
god's existence?
You haven't understood what your authorities are saying at all, if you think that your response here is relevant.