tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post6250277911200516752..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Faith & ReasonBKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-24174060269735211202008-05-19T01:13:00.000-07:002008-05-19T01:13:00.000-07:00Addressed to Layman,Of course. Do you mean that to...Addressed to Layman,<BR/><BR/>Of course. <BR/><BR/>Do you mean that to suggest that an "inner conviction" is evidence one can have have complete faith in? I don't believe any sane person accepts that, so this is posed as a question. <BR/><BR/>Please don't come the heavy with your moralizing about "twisting words" with me. Just answer the question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-42058613118166112852008-05-18T18:57:00.000-07:002008-05-18T18:57:00.000-07:00People have many reasons for faith, such as inner ...<I>People have many reasons for faith, such as inner convictions, persuasions, being moved, insights.</I><BR/><BR/>Okay. But you deny that any of this is evidence?Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-32279059607965694962008-05-18T15:58:00.000-07:002008-05-18T15:58:00.000-07:00Batt,As I know the first paragraph wasn't addresse...Batt,<BR/><BR/>As I know the first paragraph wasn't addressed to me, I'll ignore it and move along.<BR/><BR/>{{People have many reasons for faith, such as inner convictions, persuasions, being moved, insights.}}<BR/><BR/>All of which are, as you rightly pointed out, reasons for faith. Those are not the extent of reasons for faith, however; some of us prefer to go deeper and get more technical Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-18221106774753159972008-05-18T14:35:00.000-07:002008-05-18T14:35:00.000-07:00I will not take patronizing charity lessons from a...I will not take patronizing charity lessons from a professing Christian who twists my words. I did not twist your words -- I asked you for clarification. And I replied with a conditional statement "If you are saying" in the meantime. Enough of your condescending moral lecturing.<BR/><BR/>People have many reasons for faith, such as inner convictions, persuasions, being moved, insights. <BR/><BR/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-29476971143307602372008-05-18T06:56:00.000-07:002008-05-18T06:56:00.000-07:00Batt,Incidentally, the text doesn't read that thos...Batt,<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, the text doesn't read that those who have believed without seeing are <I>more</I> blessed. (Christians sometimes forget this, too. {s})<BR/><BR/>There was more than one Doubting Thomas in that story; and Thomas wasn't operating in an evidential vacuum, any more than any of the rest of them were. He demanded even more evidence than the others required, though really Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-49172614288422604142008-05-17T20:46:00.000-07:002008-05-17T20:46:00.000-07:00Battery,Try and be a little charitable. You will ...Battery,<BR/><BR/>Try and be a little charitable. You will have more productive discussions. I was careful in how I phrased my statement because it was not exactly clear to me how you were using some of your phrases. <BR/><BR/>You seem to use "proof" as incontrovertible evidence of something. Okay, fine. But we apparently have different understandings of the terms "evidence" and "faith." IfLaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-89712134345462782282008-05-17T17:29:00.000-07:002008-05-17T17:29:00.000-07:00Layman, you misrepresent what I said. I did not sa...Layman, you misrepresent what I said. I did not say faith is belief without a reason for the belief. I said it is belief without proof or evidence. Completely different. If I have proof or evidence for something I don't need faith. <BR/><BR/>Are you saying that if I see something like a person returned from the dead standing in front of me that I have no "evidence" for that person being Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-11045927963512778892008-05-17T17:15:00.000-07:002008-05-17T17:15:00.000-07:00Are you saying that "others who will believe witho...Are you saying that "others who will believe without . . . evidence will be even more blessed?" If so, then why look for evidence if it will only mean a lesser blessing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-83763694730878590022008-05-17T16:52:00.000-07:002008-05-17T16:52:00.000-07:00Battery,To the extent you suggest that faith is be...Battery,<BR/><BR/>To the extent you suggest that faith is belief without any reason for that belief, I disagree. The resurrection itself is God's means of providing proof of Jesus' claims, after all. Why leave the tomb empty? Why appear in bodily form at all? To provide evidence for the resurrection. <BR/><BR/>And I think you mean Thomas, not Judas. But Jesus did not say those who believed Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-15354391023504608022008-05-17T00:53:00.000-07:002008-05-17T00:53:00.000-07:00Why are so many who profess faith apparently so ke...Why are so many who profess faith apparently so keen to find proofs and evidences for their faith? <BR/><BR/>Is not the very essence of faith to believe without evidence, or apart from the things seen? So would not finding proofs and evidence reduce faith in God and the Bible to something like "faith" in gravity, which is not really a "faith" at all? <BR/><BR/>So wouldn't proofs and evidences Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-32207117936504646842008-05-14T11:17:00.000-07:002008-05-14T11:17:00.000-07:00I don't think Steven is disputing that, Dill. He's...I don't think Steven is disputing that, Dill. He's satirically digging at how that process is supposed to be linked to a "self-authentication" of the sort that some people seem to be talking about.<BR/><BR/>JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-52823951760867406892008-05-14T10:38:00.000-07:002008-05-14T10:38:00.000-07:00I guess it depends on where you want to go with th...I guess it depends on where you want to go with this one.<BR/><BR/>If I fire up a blog tomorrow and declare that I've used the scientific method and proven that there was a created universe, would you simply agree with me since I used the scientific method, or would you want to examine all my hard work and thinking process to make sure I wasn't a quack at the time I wrote it down?<BR/><BR/>Dillie-Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17248916127845828772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-64310312989638546232008-05-14T10:22:00.000-07:002008-05-14T10:22:00.000-07:00I see. SO a self-authenticating experience is that...I see. SO a self-authenticating experience is that has to be verified by the community, or perhaps by the Bible.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-79801469718389117492008-05-14T10:07:00.000-07:002008-05-14T10:07:00.000-07:00"And I like the claim that the church has to exami..."And I like the claim that the church has to examine self-authenticated experiences....."<BR/><BR/>Just like the scientific community has likes to verify the results of any given scientist, even though they used the scientific method to do their experiment?<BR/><BR/>We all know that the truth needs to be verified in some sort or another by the community, no matter how crazy it may seem at first. Dillie-Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17248916127845828772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-62380047090036447512008-05-14T04:07:00.000-07:002008-05-14T04:07:00.000-07:00How can I know that you are not possessed by a lyi...How can I know that you are not possessed by a lying spirit when you say your alleged god does not allow lying spirits to come to those who worship him in truth?<BR/><BR/>And I like the claim that the church has to examine self-authenticated experiences.....Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-33583002738569377242008-05-14T03:50:00.000-07:002008-05-14T03:50:00.000-07:00Goliath,You have chosen to be harsh in your respon...Goliath,<BR/><BR/>You have chosen to be harsh in your response, so I do likewise: Just keep thinking that way and you just may get exactly what you ask for. <BR/><BR/>Steven Carr,<BR/><BR/>The church is there to help determine the truthfulness of the Spirits by corporate examination of claims. But self-authentication is what your own heart experiences about God. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the 1 Kings BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-2292936388452046002008-05-13T22:49:00.000-07:002008-05-13T22:49:00.000-07:00'What I found during that trip was that the experi...'What I found during that trip was that the experience of Christian service, evangelism, worship, and fellowship revived my faith in God. This revival happened because through these experiences I had a strong sense of God's presence and activity.'<BR/><BR/>And if he had gone to a Moonie camp for a month or two, he would have walked out a Moonie...Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-49352731303724878002008-05-13T22:39:00.000-07:002008-05-13T22:39:00.000-07:001 Kings 22:23 '"Now therefore, behold, the LORD ha...1 Kings 22:23 '"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."'<BR/><BR/>How can something be self-authenticating if it comes from a being that admits it puts lying spirits into people?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-14680053737473459992008-05-13T13:32:00.000-07:002008-05-13T13:32:00.000-07:00I would rather burn in hell for all eternity than ...I would rather burn in hell for all eternity than spend a nanosecond worshipping your god! Deal with it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-49378032072306920132008-05-13T10:36:00.000-07:002008-05-13T10:36:00.000-07:00Herm,It means atheists are just as reasonable in t...Herm,<BR/><BR/>It means atheists are just as reasonable in their beliefs, on that ground, as theists, and vice versa. Or if one is supposed to not be reasonable in their belief, on that ground, then the other must not either where appealing in an inference to that class of data.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Self-authentication" is worth talking about mainly in that it is a denial of non-reasonable belief on a Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-18458545345813223882008-05-13T07:03:00.000-07:002008-05-13T07:03:00.000-07:00"I accept Dr. Taylor's point that a Christian's fa...<I>"I accept Dr. Taylor's point that a Christian's faith is reasonable based on that person's experience of God. William L. Craig calls this the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. In legal jargon, it is self-authenticating. Lest someone object that this is overly convenient, I would point out that it is consistent with the view that God desires relationship with mankind."</I><BR/><BR/>What Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-6133281534448084902008-05-13T06:52:00.000-07:002008-05-13T06:52:00.000-07:00Kal: {{The term 'faith' simply does not possess th...Kal: {{The term 'faith' simply does not possess the same range of meaning in their system of thought.}}<BR/><BR/>Only insofar as, by tautology, an atheist doesn't believe a God exists to have personal trust in. (And even a theist, technically, might think it a non sequitur to 'trust' God in that fashion. Many pantheisms would go that route, for example.)<BR/><BR/>Otherwise atheists have exactly Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-86017968128130639462008-05-13T01:51:00.000-07:002008-05-13T01:51:00.000-07:00My own experience of God began with a rather drama...My own experience of God began with a rather dramatic conversion experience somewhat like Pascal's. I understand this is not universal, but I mention it in case it helps understand the point which follows.<BR/><BR/>In my own analysis I find faith/reason to be a false dichotomy at worst and an invalid polarity as best. Distinguishing between subjective and objective evidences allows reason and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-66934269032229656562008-05-12T23:13:00.000-07:002008-05-12T23:13:00.000-07:00The church Jesus referred to in Matthew 16.The church Jesus referred to in Matthew 16.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-69438989239128318132008-05-12T23:05:00.000-07:002008-05-12T23:05:00.000-07:00Which church?Which church?Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.com