tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post5670316999057383096..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Church Attendance by the Numbers: Stability Among the ChristiansBKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-41723199581325548072009-03-07T20:37:00.000-08:002009-03-07T20:37:00.000-08:00David, you know good and well that it will take a ...David, you know good and well that it will take a lot more than one post to hash out "rationality" in religious belief.<BR/><BR/>I'm not even objecting to your opinion, you may be right in the end (though we wouldn't be around to know) but it's the tone that you set from the start that gets me. Somehow you of all people have risen above feeble human attempts at understanding over the millenia Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-16804834373899922572009-03-06T16:54:00.000-08:002009-03-06T16:54:00.000-08:00The word rational does not mean or imply "believes...The word rational does not mean or imply "believes like me".<BR/><BR/>It means having your beliefs formed by sound methods---methods likely to generate true beliefs and avoid false ones.<BR/><BR/>The reasons religious believers give for holding their beliefs are pretty obviously not sound.<BR/><BR/>That's my opinion. And that's why I call religion a form of irrationality.<BR/><BR/>Its your rightDavid B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-76547474475713742872009-03-05T18:09:00.000-08:002009-03-05T18:09:00.000-08:00Didn't Bill Maher say that to go to work six days ...Didn't Bill Maher say that to go to work six days and to church on the seventh is schizophrenia? It just seems like the way you are using "rational" is a code for someone who believes like you.Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-80588144586389835242009-03-05T13:17:00.000-08:002009-03-05T13:17:00.000-08:00Its not just ideas that are irrational. People ca...Its not just ideas that are irrational. People can be irrational too.<BR/><BR/>I don't claim that religious people are irrational about ALL things. <BR/><BR/>I do, however, think that religious beliefs are of such a fundamental nature and so pervasive a part of the way the person holding them functions in the world that I think it perfectly justified to call religious people irrational in a David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-40098816995144000912009-03-04T12:20:00.000-08:002009-03-04T12:20:00.000-08:00You're right, except you referred to "other member...You're right, except you referred to "other members" of your species and not to ideas. I just have to read between the lines a little bit to find it.Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-53285499123514889192009-03-04T11:39:00.000-08:002009-03-04T11:39:00.000-08:00I would argue that it is not bigotry to call irrat...I would argue that it is not bigotry to call irrational thinking what it is: irrational.<BR/><BR/>I think believing that homeopathic remedies will have any effect beyond that of a placebo irrational.<BR/><BR/>Am I then bigoted against believers in homeopathy?<BR/><BR/>I think belief in astrology is irrational.<BR/><BR/>Is that bigotry?<BR/><BR/>Must one think everyone's opinions on everything asDavid B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-13611159413834480722009-03-04T05:11:00.000-08:002009-03-04T05:11:00.000-08:00Ellis, your original post struck me."Those of us m...Ellis, your original post struck me.<BR/><BR/>"Those of us more rationally-inclined"<BR/><BR/>With one sentence you show bigotry to the rest of humanity. It blows my mind that this is called "free-thinking".Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-54756407097908611452009-02-28T13:04:00.000-08:002009-02-28T13:04:00.000-08:00but those are not adequate definitions of the term...<B><BR/>but those are not adequate definitions of the term "superstition" if that is the case than any idea that is not yet proved is superstition so theories such as string theory are superstition.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>String theory is not nonnaturalistic. I MIGHT extend the definition of superstition to include unwarranted beliefs that they claim have a natural basis but which are so bizarre as David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-88199744139719604132009-02-28T09:45:00.000-08:002009-02-28T09:45:00.000-08:00Loftus,Perhaps you could be specific about what yo...Loftus,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you could be specific about what you think Stark -- perhaps the leading sociologist in the United States -- got wrong. Your post says nothing about church attendance, so it doesn't refute the substance of my post here. And Stark -- and I -- discuss the number of atheists, not the number of agnostics or people who "aren't sure." So that you cite a different poll that Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-33243928311238952132009-02-28T09:12:00.000-08:002009-02-28T09:12:00.000-08:00Layman, neither you nor Stark know what you're tal...Layman, neither you nor Stark know what you're talking about. <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/06/timesharris-poll-14-of-us-could-be.html" REL="nofollow">See this</A>. It depends on what questions are being asked in these polls. <BR/><BR/>If you fudge facts on this nonessential question, how does anyone know you're not also fudging facts when it comes to the truth claims ofAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-20417036377654608902009-02-27T20:27:00.000-08:002009-02-27T20:27:00.000-08:00MetaIn other words, a meaningless epithet used an ...<B>Meta</B>In other words, a meaningless epithet used an insult. A way of labeling ideas you hate.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Meaningless? I put religion into the category of superstition because it has (in my opinion, at least) the characteristics of being unwarranted beliefs and non-naturalistic beliefs.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>but those are not adequate definitions of the term "superstition" if that is the case Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-4778177099296809912009-02-27T16:09:00.000-08:002009-02-27T16:09:00.000-08:00Ah, so a systematic error can be made repeatedly b...Ah, so a systematic error can be made repeatedly by "rational" people if they consistently underestimate the "irrationality" of their fellow humans--don't you guys place a value on "seeing things as they are"? <BR/><BR/>How close are you getting if you keep underestimating the irrationality of the rest of us?<BR/><BR/>One of the ideas that secularizers use is that they have a pretty good handle adudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060925478720656455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-75367096668541795672009-02-27T14:11:00.000-08:002009-02-27T14:11:00.000-08:00In other words, a meaningless epithet used an insu...<B><BR/>In other words, a meaningless epithet used an insult. A way of labeling ideas you hate.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>Meaningless? I put religion into the category of superstition because it has (in my opinion, at least) the characteristics of being unwarranted beliefs and non-naturalistic beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Hardly meaningless. And if I am incorrect about the beliefs being unwarranted (as you think David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-28315788249472023272009-02-27T13:53:00.000-08:002009-02-27T13:53:00.000-08:00Those who predict the demise of religion have some...Those who predict the demise of religion have something in common with those who predict the end of the world: Thus far, every single one of them has been wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-81517383838198442462009-02-27T13:28:00.000-08:002009-02-27T13:28:00.000-08:00There are lots of ways you can define superstition...There are lots of ways you can define superstition. I typically use it as a label for a general family of beliefs with sets of similar often overlapping properties but not ones which necessarily have all the same set of properties as every other thing labelled superstitious (think Wittgenstein and the meaning of games here). <BR/><BR/><B>In other words, a meaningless epithet used an insult. A wayJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-10063686614090445932009-02-27T09:33:00.000-08:002009-02-27T09:33:00.000-08:00There are lots of ways you can define superstition...There are lots of ways you can define superstition. I typically use it as a label for a general family of beliefs with sets of similar often overlapping properties but not ones which necessarily have all the same set of properties as every other thing labelled superstitious (think Wittgenstein and the meaning of games here). In most cases I'm using it in regard to beliefs which are unwarranted David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-48044171039106114192009-02-27T08:24:00.000-08:002009-02-27T08:24:00.000-08:00My answer to the argument that religion is superst...<A HREF="http://atheistwatch.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">My answer to the argument that religion is superstition.</A>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-55988802004844306962009-02-27T06:59:00.000-08:002009-02-27T06:59:00.000-08:00More rationally-inclined people sometimes underest...More rationally-inclined people sometimes underestimate just how deep-seated superstition is in the rest of their species.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>that is the kind of criticism La Palce would make. Most thinkers have known since the Schliermacher that religino is not superstition. In fact one might even say since Newton.<BR/><BR/>the tendency to link religion with superstition grows out of a kind o of Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-90554250045665048102009-02-26T15:50:00.000-08:002009-02-26T15:50:00.000-08:00That an individual is more rationally inclined tha...That an individual is more rationally inclined than the average doesn't mean they're incapable of error.<BR/><BR/>Nor, for that matter, are most of us skeptics inclined to the view that religion is going to die out any time soon. You certainly won't catch me making such a claim.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-22802492535582140712009-02-26T15:22:00.000-08:002009-02-26T15:22:00.000-08:00More rationally-inclined people sometimes underest...<B>More rationally-inclined people sometimes underestimate just how deep-seated superstition is in the rest of their species.</B><BR/><BR/>This begs many questions. One is whether they are in fact the more "rationally-inclined" members of the species if they are so willing to drink such cool aid. It is like the Jesus Myth phenomenon, an idea so contradicted by the evidence that only the more "Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1015750644837836622009-02-26T14:01:00.000-08:002009-02-26T14:01:00.000-08:00More rationally-inclined people sometimes underest...More rationally-inclined people sometimes underestimate just how deep-seated superstition is in the rest of their species.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-30333553388446799652009-02-26T09:04:00.000-08:002009-02-26T09:04:00.000-08:00Accordingly, predictions about the demise of Chris...Accordingly, predictions about the demise of Christianity and religion in the United States appear unfounded. It is likely that the nature of Christianity has changed -- for example, the shift from moderate and liberal denominations to more conservative ones and the rise of Pentacostalism -- but that Americans are going to church in about the same numbers as their parents and their parents' Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.com