tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post5526816816388401155..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Recent Apologetics on the NativityBKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-72137543251689809662007-12-24T13:19:00.000-08:002007-12-24T13:19:00.000-08:00Jason (E),{{I came here primarily to discuss my se...Jason (E),<BR/><BR/>{{I came here primarily to discuss my series on the census, not other issues surrounding the census.}}<BR/><BR/>It occurs to me that this may be at the root of a lot of confusions. I wasn’t discussing your series on the census that much, ever; including from the beginning. That also means I wasn’t criticizing your series that much, ever; including from the beginning. I’m stillJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-79402629498107146942007-12-20T19:50:00.000-08:002007-12-20T19:50:00.000-08:00Jason and Jason,I see three "solutions" to the iss...Jason and Jason,<BR/><BR/>I see three "solutions" to the issue of the earlier registration in light of the 6 A.D. census. I was hoping to do more research, especially on one of the alternatives, but may post on the subject in more depth before leaving for Christmas vacation.<BR/><BR/>First, Herod conducts his own census, borrowing and modifying the Roman style.<BR/><BR/>The main objection to Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-51697072045084451322007-12-20T18:40:00.000-08:002007-12-20T18:40:00.000-08:00Jason Pratt writes:"On the other hand, why didn’t ...Jason Pratt writes:<BR/><BR/>"On the other hand, why didn’t they stay in Nazareth in any case and take the census? Because, Bethlehem was where Joseph’s people were from. If he goes there for a Herodian census decreeing that people have to go to their birthplace, then he’s going to go there to register in 6AD, too, when the same terms are required."<BR/><BR/>Why are we supposed to assume that "Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-19612578612410663512007-12-20T15:30:00.000-08:002007-12-20T15:30:00.000-08:00Jason (E),Before I talk about the feasibility of J...Jason (E),<BR/><BR/>Before I talk about the feasibility of Jesus signing something Himself in 6AD, let me preface by clarifying that I am <I>not</I> thinking in terms of Julian specifically having such a record in mind that he has seen and wants to talk about. I’ll discuss this later below.<BR/><BR/>{{It's more likely that Jesus and His family would have been in Nazareth in 6 A.D., not Bethlehem.Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-87922399286386368322007-12-19T22:16:00.000-08:002007-12-19T22:16:00.000-08:00Jason E.,Yes, the reason I believe the 6 A.D. cens...Jason E.,<BR/><BR/>Yes, the reason I believe the 6 A.D. census was more known, was because of its role in precipitating unrest in the region. It may have been seen as the first direct exercise of Roman authority over the province.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-90898135746671177792007-12-19T20:07:00.000-08:002007-12-19T20:07:00.000-08:00Jason Pratt wrote:"I still don’t remember you disc...Jason Pratt wrote:<BR/><BR/>"I still don’t remember you discussing the latter possibility: i.e. that people knew secondhand of real census records dating to the 6AD census but (being at secondhand) were mistaking thtem for Roman records dating to a census at the time of Herod."<BR/><BR/>I didn't directly address that issue, but I did address it indirectly in the process of discussing other Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-28172323661562059892007-12-19T10:47:00.000-08:002007-12-19T10:47:00.000-08:00Jason E,A slight (but maybe crucial) distinction: ...Jason E,<BR/><BR/>A slight (but maybe crucial) distinction: there would be a difference between mistaking a 6AD census for one that did-or-didn’t take place earlier, and mistaking official Roman records from the 6AD census as being evidence that the census spoken of by Luke had occurred. I did remember you discussing the former as a question of dating Jesus birth. (e.g. only Epiphanius, at the Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-58675834478335985302007-12-19T04:06:00.000-08:002007-12-19T04:06:00.000-08:00I just checked R. Joseph Hoffmann's rendering of t...I just checked R. Joseph Hoffmann's rendering of the passage in Julian the Apostate, and he has "with his father and mother his name was enrolled" (Julian's Against The Galileans [Amherst, New York: Prometheus Press, 2004], p. 118). That rendering doesn't involve the problem Jason Pratt is referring to. It should also be noted that the translation I initially cited, by Wilmer Cave Wright, has a Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-34693045104181178632007-12-18T18:58:00.000-08:002007-12-18T18:58:00.000-08:00Jason P.,I tend to favor the explanation that Luke...Jason P.,<BR/><BR/>I tend to favor the explanation that Luke refers to an earlier registration than the infamous 6 A.D. one, but that his grammar was confusing to some (especially later scholars) and so the natural assumption was to link it to the more famous event. I have written much of this out, but still was looking for some relevant sources. I also want to review Jason E.'s work more Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-43058280244827168732007-12-18T16:10:00.000-08:002007-12-18T16:10:00.000-08:00Thanks for the links and the encouragement.Regardi...Thanks for the links and the encouragement.<BR/><BR/>Regarding what Jason Pratt said about the potential for ancient sources to mistake the 6 A.D. census for an earlier one, I agree that that's a significant possibility that should be kept in mind. I mentioned it in the second segment of my series on the census, in the context of discussing some comments Origen made. And I don't assign as much Jason Engwerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031011335190895123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-15908466724845600162007-12-18T14:58:00.000-08:002007-12-18T14:58:00.000-08:00Thanks Layman. That portion is coming up next week...Thanks Layman. That portion is coming up next week in KoS, of course. {g}<BR/><BR/>Jason E's work at Triablogue is good, but doesn't seem to have gotten around to addressing evidence of a census set up by Augustine; and this is avowedly what Luke appears to be addressing (not a census put up by Herod, for his pal Augustine or otherwise.) I noticed that you had been intending to address that, too;Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.com