tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post5228009181845329948..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Is Divine Hiddenness a Problem?BKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-45650848834853259062009-05-23T08:10:58.696-07:002009-05-23T08:10:58.696-07:00Brad,
I grew out of mine too. It wasn't pleasant...Brad,<br /><br />I grew out of mine too. It wasn't pleasant at the time, but neither was it debilitating or too long lived.<br /><br />I know more Christians have come out the other side of such experiences. It might be helpful to some wavering Christians or others who've convinced themselves that they tried hard but could not find God, if those Christians would share more about their Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-43857358827659950042009-05-22T21:14:30.063-07:002009-05-22T21:14:30.063-07:00Thanks, Layman. I think the more interesting part...Thanks, Layman. I think the more interesting part of the argument from divine hiddenness is not whether any reasonable unbelief is sufficient, but thanks for the clarification.CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-60662684517651997612009-05-22T08:26:19.667-07:002009-05-22T08:26:19.667-07:00Layman, this is a great article, thanks.
My faith...Layman, this is a great article, thanks.<br /><br />My faith crisis actually led me to a deeper faith and hunger to know more about God. I wouldn't be where I am without it. It was painful, but I grew out of it.Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-171438243560839832009-05-21T22:25:48.894-07:002009-05-21T22:25:48.894-07:00Sorry I wasn't clear.
Those who make the argument...Sorry I wasn't clear.<br /><br />Those who make the argument from divine hiddenness tend to argue that any reasonable unbelief is sufficient to disprove God's existence. Thus, no amount of reasonable belief out there insulates the conclusion: no matter how many people reasonably belief in God the existence of those who reasonably disbelief means that God does not exist.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-73135563186859047442009-05-21T10:14:14.322-07:002009-05-21T10:14:14.322-07:00Layman wrote, "Actually, the argument from divine ...Layman wrote, "Actually, the argument from divine hiddenness does trump any reasonable disbelief over all reasonable belief. "<br /><br />Can you explain this (again)? I've tried to tease apart an explanation of this sentence on my own and I fail every time.CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-27177384179253744892009-05-20T21:18:15.146-07:002009-05-20T21:18:15.146-07:00Leslie,
Thanks for your comments about divine hid...Leslie,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments about divine hiddenness as reflective of God's mercy. Its a line of reasoning I'd like to follow up on further.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-6748012272247103612009-05-20T21:17:34.705-07:002009-05-20T21:17:34.705-07:00CIM,
Actually, the argument from divine hiddennes...CIM,<br /><br />Actually, the argument from divine hiddenness does trump any reasonable disbelief over all reasonable belief. <br /><br />And who has argued that God's hiddenness is "reasonable" or "compelling evidence for God's existence." That makes no sense. The ADH is obviously an affirmative argument against God's existence.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-73640352913133992582009-05-20T21:11:44.070-07:002009-05-20T21:11:44.070-07:00AH,
The argument from divine hiddenness is not a ...AH,<br /><br />The argument from divine hiddenness is not a response to the claim that God can be known if we sincerely seek Him. It is an affirmative argument that God does not exist. Some Christians -- Calvinists among them -- don't even think everyone is capable of sincerely seeking God. <br /><br />And you have failed to highlight any questions or point out the deficiencies in my answers.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-55234290039773375952009-05-19T16:10:27.973-07:002009-05-19T16:10:27.973-07:00I didn't catch this before. Layman wrote
"One lo...I didn't catch this before. Layman wrote<br /><br />"One logical extension of the argument from divine hiddenness is that it would compel 90% of Americans to conclude that they are mistaken that God exists because 5% of their fellow Americans do not know either way and another 5% conclude God does not exist. The 90% would have to concede to the 5%, no matter how reasonable their belief or CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-77319523418406580372009-05-19T07:37:00.000-07:002009-05-19T07:37:00.000-07:00Well the argument in the first place is a response...Well the argument in the first place is a response to Christian claims that God can be known if we sincerely seek him, but I think if you go back and read my first comment you'll find that I didn't defend this as an argument against God's existence anyway; I said it raised a number of difficult questions for Christians; questions which you appear to be unable to answer with anything more than Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-17383750573073423002009-05-18T14:43:00.000-07:002009-05-18T14:43:00.000-07:00A Hermit,
What you are ignoring is that I'm the r...A Hermit,<br /><br />What you are ignoring is that I'm the responding party here. If one party presume to guess what God would do then I'm entitled to respond in the same way am I not?<br /><br />You seem to be saying only atheists can speculate about what God would do, when Christians respond they are just doing "guesswork."<br /><br />And I actually don't think my responses are just "guess Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-64098475584436884772009-05-18T14:29:00.000-07:002009-05-18T14:29:00.000-07:00'Why are you asking a question that I proposed sev...<I>'Why are you asking a question that I proposed several answers to in the post without any acknowledgment of the contents of the post?"</I>Because the contents of the post are, as I pointed out, mere speculation; you say you are unimpressed by arguments that guess at what God would do, but that;'s precisley what your own argument does. Worse it guesses that there is a God and that this God has Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-38479029026386143332009-05-18T14:16:00.000-07:002009-05-18T14:16:00.000-07:00A hermit,
Why are you asking a question that I pr...A hermit,<br /><br />Why are you asking a question that I proposed several answers to in the post without any acknowledgment of the contents of the post?<br /><br />I do not think it is judgmental to say that I do not know how earnest your seeking truly was. <br /><br />What is unimpressive is an argument that tries to guess what God would do and the precise values he would or would not place onLaymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-50058767295593767532009-05-18T07:18:00.000-07:002009-05-18T07:18:00.000-07:00Layman, my argument isn't about what God must do, ...Layman, my argument isn't about what God must do, it's about what would be rational.CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-81053431024139085842009-05-18T07:00:00.000-07:002009-05-18T07:00:00.000-07:00Hermit,
A) These were not ineffable excuses. An ...Hermit,<br /><br />A) These were not ineffable excuses. An ineffable excuse would be just that - an excuse. If he said "well, God's just too great so we can't possibly understand and who am I to question?" then you might be correct. (Although even that I don't think should be cast off as easily as you seem to think.) But obviously that's not what he is saying here. He's saying that given the Lesliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05454747871999481708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-63453489590807644372009-05-17T21:32:00.000-07:002009-05-17T21:32:00.000-07:00"I don't think God is hidden by any means. It is o...<I>"I don't think God is hidden by any means. It is obvious that He could do more, but I think it is silly to assume that such steps would have no other consequences."</I>If He 'could do more" why doesn't He? What consequences does a God have to worry about?<br /><br /><I>"As for your earnest search, perhaps you gave it up too soon. Perhaps God will yet answer you. Perhaps it was not as earnest Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-85052912878819530222009-05-17T20:36:00.000-07:002009-05-17T20:36:00.000-07:00A Hermit,
I don't think God is hidden by any mean...A Hermit,<br /><br />I don't think God is hidden by any means. It is obvious that He could do more, but I think it is silly to assume that such steps would have no other consequences. <br /><br />As for your earnest search, perhaps you gave it up too soon. Perhaps God will yet answer you. Perhaps it was not as earnest as you like to think. Perhaps it was. <br /><br />I know that my earnest Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-14515936212984851022009-05-17T20:07:00.000-07:002009-05-17T20:07:00.000-07:00Layman, I don't think it's proper for a counter-ar...Layman, I don't think it's proper for a counter-argument to merely reduce to "an idea may be correct." You could critique *any* claim with "the opposite may be true based on factors we don't know or can't understand." I'm saying that, given what we know and what is rational, God's hiddenness makes no sense. That does not directly contradict what you say, it just makes what you say irrelevant CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-47445638852117202642009-05-17T19:02:00.000-07:002009-05-17T19:02:00.000-07:00I don't know that it's a persuasive argument again...I don't know that it's a persuasive argument against God;'s existence, but I think the problem of hiddeness still presents some difficult questions for believers; I don't find any of your suggested reasons for such divine deceit very compelling. Arguments that rely on ineffable divine plans always leave me cold.<br /><br />If separation from God is such a terrible thing then isn't God's decision Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-86159912047582989812009-05-17T17:00:00.000-07:002009-05-17T17:00:00.000-07:00Thanks a lot for this post Layman, I think you mad...Thanks a lot for this post Layman, I think you made some great points. For me personally, divine hiddenness hits at something emotional. I mean, it is bothersome to talk to God and not have him talk directly back. <br /><br />But logically I think it's really not as big a deal as it's made out to be. <br /><br />I particularly liked this comment:<br /><br />"Or perhaps the "epistemic distanceLesliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05454747871999481708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-75322575061522922832009-05-16T23:51:00.000-07:002009-05-16T23:51:00.000-07:00CMI,
Did you not notice that actually Chris gave ...CMI,<br /><br />Did you not notice that actually Chris gave quite a few potential reasons why God would allow reasonable unbelief? <br /><br />Excellent piece, Chris. You've very effectively covered both the intellectual and pastoral dimensions of the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-16017437703211092752009-05-16T22:48:00.000-07:002009-05-16T22:48:00.000-07:00CIR,
Your point is not all that clear. God's rati...CIR,<br /><br />Your point is not all that clear. God's rationale does not have to be "above rationality" by any means, it simply may rely on knowledge and information that we do not have or cannot understand at present.<br /><br />I suppose if you define rationality to mean what humans can understand at any given point in history with limited information you might have a point, but then you are Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-63529546787792431972009-05-16T22:45:00.000-07:002009-05-16T22:45:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-10967814813635085122009-05-16T21:41:00.000-07:002009-05-16T21:41:00.000-07:00Regarding the argument that God may allow for reas...Regarding the argument that God may allow for reasonable atheists for reason we can't fathom:<br /><br />that's the same as saying that the reason that God allows reasonable atheists is unfathomable. The more rhetorical reading of that sentence, distinct from the literal reading of it, is my main point. We can find no rational reason why God would allow reasonable atheists, then it is not CallMeIrresponsiblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-32389241496345234192009-05-16T20:45:00.000-07:002009-05-16T20:45:00.000-07:00Very good reasoning and presentation. I doubt any ...Very good reasoning and presentation. I doubt any would admit it, but I wonder how many skeptics assume there is no God simply because they don't feel his existence?Janell Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11826890617513736254noreply@blogger.com