tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post1193227826169361729..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Are we all closet atheists?BKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-64601234412660542152009-03-04T02:42:00.000-08:002009-03-04T02:42:00.000-08:00Vox Day answers Barna here http://irrationalatheis...Vox Day answers Barna here http://irrationalatheist.com/downloads.html and presents convincing data that atheism leads to social decay - reinforcing the common sense belief.<BR/><BR/>Chapter 1 deals with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-92131649092004085632009-02-23T08:56:00.000-08:002009-02-23T08:56:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-57040299916490917742009-02-22T14:39:00.000-08:002009-02-22T14:39:00.000-08:00To repeat the questions from my comment: "would an...<B><BR/>To repeat the questions from my comment: "would any of our visiting sceptics care to weigh in on which kind of shared ethical behaviors would tend to imply to you that, deep down, evangelical Christians are really just as atheistic as atheists?"<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I don't share the opinion that evangelical christians are closet atheist.<BR/><BR/>The whole idea seems implausible to me. David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-53695836809108342842009-02-22T13:09:00.000-08:002009-02-22T13:09:00.000-08:00Thanks for visiting from Debunking Christianity, R...Thanks for visiting from Debunking Christianity, Russ and David. Sorry for the impolite welcome from one of our former atheists. He can be irritable, as some of you already know from experience. (But thanks for mea culpa-ing at the end there, Meta.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>I can't quite tell from your replies, but did either of you try to answer the questions I asked in my comment (here or at the DebunX Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-86434063969659915302009-02-21T08:56:00.000-08:002009-02-21T08:56:00.000-08:00I'm well aware of that. Please refrain from attrib...I'm well aware of that. Please refrain from attributing to me opinions I have not expressed.<BR/><BR/>I never claimed the Enlightenment was an atheist movement. I only said that my values derive largely from a tradition rooted in the Enlightenment. That's all I said and its all I meant.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>I do apologize. I was sort of out of sorts when I made those comments due to the nature of theJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-19619269968249068662009-02-21T08:22:00.000-08:002009-02-21T08:22:00.000-08:00If you knew more about that tradition you would kn...<B><BR/>If you knew more about that tradition you would know that ti was not established by atheists. Philosophes were religious. Very few of them were atheists and they were late in the period.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I'm well aware of that. Please refrain from attributing to me opinions I have not expressed.<BR/><BR/>I never claimed the Enlightenment was an atheist movement. I only said that my David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-5030886471793018592009-02-21T07:21:00.000-08:002009-02-21T07:21:00.000-08:00My values don't derive from christianity. They eme...My values don't derive from christianity. They emerge from the thinking of the Enlightenment and the humanist tradition that emerged from it.<BR/><BR/><B>But learning about that tradition is exactly what I did my failed eivl stupid Christian Ph.D. thing, which was a secular problem and most my professors were atheists.<BR/><BR/>To learn about that Tradition you have to do all that subjective, Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-37692615388220513732009-02-21T07:14:00.000-08:002009-02-21T07:14:00.000-08:00And part of that time wasting near Ph.D. getting s...And part of that time wasting near Ph.D. getting stuff was spent running a left wing quasi marxist academic journal devoted Marcuse and new left.<BR/><BR/>I'm willing to bet you don't even know what that means.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1736732772944486612009-02-21T07:12:00.000-08:002009-02-21T07:12:00.000-08:00Millions of people are starving, J.L., and your im...Millions of people are starving, J.L., and your imaginary god will not do anything about. You will, no doubt, tell me that Christians will do what they can and give the credit to their god, and attribute to god's will all the deaths. <BR/><BR/><B>I doubt that you have sufficient courage of your convictions to do anything about it. When Dallas CISPES was known to have been infiltrated by the FBI Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-71290336690963896162009-02-21T06:32:00.000-08:002009-02-21T06:32:00.000-08:00Hinman,You said,Of cousre if you are willing to on...Hinman,<BR/><BR/>You said,<BR/><BR/>Of cousre if you are willing to only examine the surface, like a good little reductionist, then of course you are going to create the illusion that there's no God.<BR/><BR/>You never have to see what you do not wish to see.<BR/><BR/><B>Actually that sounds a lot nastier than I meant for it to. sorry.</B><BR/><BR/><BR/>There is no reason to go beyond the surfaceJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-81749895745745950282009-02-21T06:01:00.000-08:002009-02-21T06:01:00.000-08:00The reason atheists exhibit almost all the same mo...<B><BR/>The reason atheists exhibit almost all the same moral behaviors as their Christian counterparts is because our (and that means ALL of us) moral framework here in the west has been built on Christian morals. <BR/><BR/></B><BR/><BR/>If my values as an atheist are a holdover from christianity why are they so very different on so very many issues?<BR/><BR/>Christians often consider David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-90812150861263318302009-02-21T00:03:00.000-08:002009-02-21T00:03:00.000-08:00Hinman, You said, Of cousre if you are willing to ...Hinman, <BR/><BR/>You said, <BR/><I><BR/>Of cousre if you are willing to only examine the surface, like a good little reductionist, then of course you are going to create the illusion that there's no God.<BR/><BR/>You never have to see what you do not wish to see.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>There is no reason to go beyond the surface in theology or philosophy of religion. Christianity has had lots of Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316459700934662467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-22857811782272810732009-02-20T21:33:00.000-08:002009-02-20T21:33:00.000-08:00There's pretty good evidence that we are not born ...There's pretty good evidence that we are not born an absence of belief. We are born with a genetic component that makes belief in God natural. When atheists were so sure we were born without belief then they were certain that was the "default." Now that that is disproved, they are still trying to turn the opposite position into some sort of proof for them.<BR/><BR/>I think that's hilarious Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-67374147649955903542009-02-20T21:07:00.000-08:002009-02-20T21:07:00.000-08:00I linked here from Debunking Christianity. For dis...I linked here from Debunking Christianity. For disclosure purposes, I am a long-time atheist, for whom the issue of the existence of a god, any god, has been settled in the same way that cold fusion has been settled in physics. If solid evidence is ever presented supporting the idea, I will gladly give it further consideration, but until that time I hardly give it any thought.<BR/><BR/><B>Of Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-13785821204961916572009-02-20T21:06:00.000-08:002009-02-20T21:06:00.000-08:00If we accept this claim, how do we explain that th...If we accept this claim, how do we explain that the moral behaviors of all human beings the world over religious or not, Western or not, are essentially what you call "Christian morals?" Wherever we go - the Arctic, Australia, Indonesia, Alaska, China, the Amazon, Borneo, Patagonia, India, Africa - it is observed that all humans share the same moral intuitions. Christians might want to claim thatJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-77371082607449942642009-02-20T21:03:00.000-08:002009-02-20T21:03:00.000-08:00that same Barna thing shows that theologically lib...that same Barna thing shows that theologically liberal Christians have lower diverse rates than atheists.<BR/><BR/>so what's the point? Truth by divorce right?Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-6400028963766793612009-02-20T20:57:00.000-08:002009-02-20T20:57:00.000-08:00Layman,Please note the following data published by...Layman,<BR/><BR/>Please note the following data published by the Christian pollsters, the Barna Group<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:<BR/>1. 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.<BR/>2. 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.<BR/>3. <B>Divorce Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316459700934662467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-55858745594899899412009-02-20T17:59:00.000-08:002009-02-20T17:59:00.000-08:00Russ,I am not sure what your point is about televi...Russ,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure what your point is about television watching and religious activity. The comparison is much too simplistic and flawed for your apparent purposes, but if your ultimate point is that Americans are not highly religious and watch too much smut on t.v., I know a great many evangelicals and evangelists would tell you, "Amen, Brother!"Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-54574681319567900502009-02-20T17:30:00.000-08:002009-02-20T17:30:00.000-08:00JD,Maybe he should have written about atheists bei...JD,<BR/><BR/>Maybe he should have written about atheists being "closet Christians" because they live by many of the same moral beliefs as evangelicals?<BR/><BR/>In any event, I don't equate all evangelicals or Christians as believing the same thing with the same intensity. Thus, a weak evangelical or Christian belief, perhaps a cultural one, may not affect behavior nearly as much as a strong Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-36566284981154136592009-02-20T15:15:00.000-08:002009-02-20T15:15:00.000-08:00Eh, In your comment, The reason atheists exhibit a...Eh, <BR/>In your comment, <BR/><I><BR/>The reason atheists exhibit almost all the same moral behaviors as their Christian counterparts is because our (and that means ALL of us) moral framework here in the west has been built on Christian morals.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>If we accept this claim, how do we explain that the moral behaviors of all human beings the world over religious or not, Western or notRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316459700934662467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-55045927069482545592009-02-20T13:51:00.000-08:002009-02-20T13:51:00.000-08:00Hi JD,I linked here from Debunking Christianity. ...Hi JD,<BR/><BR/>I linked here from Debunking Christianity. For disclosure purposes, I am a long-time atheist, for whom the issue of the existence of a god, any god, has been settled in the same way that cold fusion has been settled in physics. If solid evidence is ever presented supporting the idea, I will gladly give it further consideration, but until that time I hardly give it any thought.<Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316459700934662467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-33158093588995879832009-02-20T10:33:00.000-08:002009-02-20T10:33:00.000-08:00Hi Leslie,Thank you for your wise comments. I shou...Hi Leslie,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your wise comments. I should point out that credit for the bourgeoisie mentality argument should all go to Richard Beck. Check out his amazing blog that I link to. You'll find it's full of fascinating, innovative theology.<BR/><BR/>I agree wholeheartedly that both evangelicals and atheists have had very diluted exposure to the Christian tradition. They get their Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-27146282776757086422009-02-20T07:18:00.000-08:002009-02-20T07:18:00.000-08:00I like both the points made here by Eh and Jason. ...I like both the points made here by Eh and Jason. And I think that's a great question that Jason poses as well. While either answer reveals something uniquely interesting about the way Mr. Lobdell is thinking, neither answer changes the general flaw in assumption. Whether we deal with the same temptations and evils, or whether we participate in the same benevolent behavior, I don't see why Lesliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05454747871999481708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-38770298195437751782009-02-20T05:35:00.000-08:002009-02-20T05:35:00.000-08:00As a sort of aside: I think it's interesting that ...As a sort of aside: I think it's interesting that Mr. Lobdell, instead of arriving at a result like, for example, Eh's, arrives at the other result instead. After all, despite his rather derogatory way of putting it, Eh's result could in theory be true just as easily as the other: both groups really believe, deep down, that God is real. Or he could have arrived at a result similar to what JD Jason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-2091153385865547052009-02-19T22:16:00.000-08:002009-02-19T22:16:00.000-08:00The reason atheists exhibit almost all the same mo...The reason atheists exhibit almost all the same moral behaviors as their Christian counterparts is because our (and that means ALL of us) moral framework here in the west has been built on Christian morals. <BR/><BR/>The whole question there is why should anybody care about "good moral" behavior at all? <BR/><BR/>Nonsense like this whole "closet atheist" junk is just irrational atheists Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com