tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post116639638377605762..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Together Again – Peter and CephasBKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166759942740082592006-12-21T19:59:00.000-08:002006-12-21T19:59:00.000-08:00John, The problem is that you're being a Steven Ca...John, <BR/><BR/>The problem is that you're being a Steven Carr. Please don't do that. Please? What does it mean to be a Steven Carr? Its when you use every topical blog as a springboard for your infinite list of reasons why you don't like Christianity. Just stay on topic. Is that so much to ask? All of the other ways you want to express yourself can be done on your own blog. I say this to you, Alex Daltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826568465831489492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166648922004203142006-12-20T13:08:00.000-08:002006-12-20T13:08:00.000-08:00Can we move on now?Okay.I know that discussions li...<I>Can we move on now?</I><BR/><BR/>Okay.<BR/><BR/>I know that discussions like this are never ending. I state how I see things. That's all I can do. For me it's all about seeing things differently. It's not about more and more knowledge. It's about viewing what we know in a different light. Again, thanks for letting me share how I see things.<BR/><BR/>I must share how I see things on a host of Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166638315675820282006-12-20T10:11:00.000-08:002006-12-20T10:11:00.000-08:00Loftus,I agree that archeology is a useful tool of...Loftus,<BR/><BR/>I agree that archeology is a useful tool of human inquiry. Call it a soft science if you want. But I don't mindlessly equate it with chemistry or physics. <BR/><BR/><I>But the crux of the matter isn't what Jesus and the gospel writers believed about the 12 tribes of Israel. The crux of the matter is their whole basis for believing in the symbolic meaning of numbers, both in Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166625679232931262006-12-20T06:41:00.000-08:002006-12-20T06:41:00.000-08:00Archaeology is science, and that's what Dever and ...Archaeology is science, and that's what Dever and many others have concluded (even more radical conclusions have been generated from the evidence).<BR/><BR/>But the crux of the matter isn't what Jesus and the gospel writers believed about the 12 tribes of Israel. The crux of the matter is their whole basis for believing in the symbolic meaning of numbers, both in the time of the origin of the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166574547430879812006-12-19T16:29:00.000-08:002006-12-19T16:29:00.000-08:00"This is science, and science disconfirms the Exod..."This is science, and science disconfirms the Exodus."<BR/><BR/>The peasant revolt model is science? I thought Dever was a historian. Other historians have more faith in the Exodus accounts.<BR/><BR/>But the crux of the matter was your attempt to discount the idea that Jesus had an inner circle of twelve disciples based on the symbology argument. But in your last paragraph you concede the Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166527633933289862006-12-19T03:27:00.000-08:002006-12-19T03:27:00.000-08:00I don't know why not just three or seven tribes? M...I don't know why not just three or seven tribes? Maybe 12 was considered a fuller number when it can to a "nation." Was there really a conquest by the 12 tribes of Israel? <BR/><BR/>William Dever, in <I>The Anchor Bible Dictionary</I>: “Clearly, from our discussion the conquest model is ruled out. The founders of the Iron I villagers do not appear to have been newcomers to Palestine, much less Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166507382592916952006-12-18T21:49:00.000-08:002006-12-18T21:49:00.000-08:00I've studied this topic very little, but isn't it ...I've studied this topic very little, but isn't it kind of obvious that Jesus had more than twelve disciples? Afterall, he sent out the 72 in Luke 10:1. John 6:60-66 reports that many of his disciples -- not just the twelve -- began to grumble at His teachings and that: "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." In John 8:31-32 Jesus is speaking to a crowd and nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978522088646818858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166499170509744762006-12-18T19:32:00.000-08:002006-12-18T19:32:00.000-08:00"And why shouldn't I be skeptical about the so-cal..."And why shouldn't I be skeptical about the so-called twelve tribes of Israel? The numbers in ancient times were so important it had to be twelve."<BR/><BR/>Like the Twelve Tribes of the Persians? And the Twelve Tribes of the Greeks? And the Twelve Tribes of the Samaritans? And the Twelve Tribes of the Romans? <BR/>Oh, and the Twelve Colonies of the Americas?<BR/><BR/>Why not Seven Tribes? Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166498932636183682006-12-18T19:28:00.000-08:002006-12-18T19:28:00.000-08:00"Of course, with the symbolism that we see in the ..."Of course, with the symbolism that we see in the Bible I am skeptical that there were even 12 tribes of Israel!"<BR/><BR/>I think you are missing the point. Whether you are skeptical or not tells us nothing about Jewish belief during the time of Jesus. Are you saying that Jews in the time of Jesus did not believe there were twelve tribes?Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166496840136026832006-12-18T18:54:00.000-08:002006-12-18T18:54:00.000-08:00And why shouldn't I be skeptical about the so-call...And why shouldn't I be skeptical about the so-called twelve tribes of Israel? The numbers in ancient times were so important it had to be twelve.<BR/><BR/>In Genesis 49 Jacob/Israel blesses his twelve named sons, and it says: "All these are the twelve tribes of Israel..." However, <B>they were not yet tribes!</B> <BR/><BR/>Now according to Exodus there was the passage of about 430 years. That isAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166495962680148932006-12-18T18:39:00.000-08:002006-12-18T18:39:00.000-08:00Of course, with the symbolism that we see in the B...Of course, with the symbolism that we see in the Bible I am skeptical that there were even 12 tribes of Israel!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166480537671910432006-12-18T14:22:00.000-08:002006-12-18T14:22:00.000-08:00Actually, it is because -- in part -- they attribu...Actually, it is because -- in part -- they attributed such importance to numbers in ancient times that there likely was a group known as "the Twelve" during Jesus' ministry. Choosing twelve disciples as symbolic of the twelve tribes fits into Jesus' establishing a new kingdom of God. <BR/><BR/>Were they they same twelve throughout his ministry? Perhaps not. I think it possible that some Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761410435140602771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1166475312835612752006-12-18T12:55:00.000-08:002006-12-18T12:55:00.000-08:00I agree that Peter and Cephas are the same person....I agree that Peter and Cephas are the same person. But what do you say about the claim there were 12 disciples? <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/12/discussing-with-inerrantist.html" REL="nofollow">See here</A>. And what do you say to my answer to that specific question in these words:<BR/><BR/>E.P. Sanders wrote about this very problem in his book <I>The Historical Figure Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com