tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post115393163467558186..comments2024-03-14T08:15:15.207-07:00Comments on CADRE Comments: Carrier, Moreland and Morality, Part IBKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1155256465155361092006-08-10T17:34:00.000-07:002006-08-10T17:34:00.000-07:00Hi Lurchling.... let me attempt some thoughts here...Hi Lurchling.... let me attempt some thoughts here.<BR/><BR/> <B>but in an atheistic view, what is the foundation for this ideal morality separate from subjective, self-interest morality? </B><BR/><BR/>Ideal morality as I am attempting to define it, is some idealized perfect-- no war, no famine, no fear, increased knowlege, understanding etc. Personal ideas of morality are subjective, but we canSiamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1155153583673862322006-08-09T12:59:00.000-07:002006-08-09T12:59:00.000-07:00Hi Lurchling..First an apology for not responding ...Hi Lurchling..<BR/><BR/>First an apology for not responding sooner. To tell you the truth, I've had a hard time coming back to this site. I see it as very negative sometimes, and really feel overwhelmed at the sheer number of arguments against atheist morality by some posters that I cannot possibly address. Anyway, in good faith, I'll do my best to answer your questions.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>"Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154390263551101002006-07-31T16:57:00.000-07:002006-07-31T16:57:00.000-07:00Zok made some further points that I have not yet a...Zok made some further points that I have not yet addressed:<BR/><BR/><B>"Our ultimate purpose lies in the reason we were put here. But without God we weren’t put here for any particular reason so we have no ultimate purpose for living; we’re just a cosmic accident. "</B><BR/><BR/>Just because I don't know the purpose of the universe doesn't mean the universe has no purpose, or that I have no Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154388603500780742006-07-31T16:30:00.000-07:002006-07-31T16:30:00.000-07:00Hi Lurchling,"So do you admit in this argument tha...Hi Lurchling,<BR/><BR/><B>"So do you admit in this argument that morality is in the eye of the beholder?"</B><BR/><BR/>Not necessarily. What I mean by it is that I understand the definition of "objective morality" as being discussed here as "morality coming from a non-human source." Since atheists don't believe in laws from a non-human source, we cannot compete, as it were, provided that is theSiamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154370981686579762006-07-31T11:36:00.000-07:002006-07-31T11:36:00.000-07:00I'm starting to understand what this argument is a...I'm starting to understand what this argument is about. I started to post about how atheists DO have a mechanism and a logically valid set of reasons for moral behavior.<BR/><BR/>I have shown this.<BR/><BR/>Now I think the subject of the conversation has drifted to "objective" morality versus "subjective". And to that I have a simple rebuttal.<BR/><BR/>Religious claims of an objective morality Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154308340873034182006-07-30T18:12:00.000-07:002006-07-30T18:12:00.000-07:00Did anybody catch Carr's interjections in this? T...Did anybody catch Carr's interjections in this? That was great for comedic relief... Comedic because he somehow didn't understand that the subject was not how God could do something morally or immorally or what excactly God was or was not doing, but how without a Universal to give value and meaning to particulars like human life, one cannot make a moral judgement that has an inherent value slaveofonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493574936843969520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154215793971598332006-07-29T16:29:00.000-07:002006-07-29T16:29:00.000-07:00Putting off grading summer essays...Zok points out...Putting off grading summer essays...<BR/><BR/>Zok points out something we know is very ancient: humans (generally) crave larger purpose. This can attach itself to the state, where aggressive instinct can be channelled into killing others or self-sacrifice for the country; into religion; into another ideology like environmentalism or marxism or republicanism (whatever that is); into loyalty to aTenaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825416797769424875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154196963658115042006-07-29T11:16:00.000-07:002006-07-29T11:16:00.000-07:00zok:"We may enjoy living, but without God our live...<B><I>zok:<BR/>"We may enjoy living, but without God our lives really have no ultimate purpose. We’re all going to die sometime, and it ultimately makes no difference whether it happens today or in fifty years, or whether it’s by murder or old age."<BR/><BR/>Bruce:<BR/>You may not think so, but I disagree. My ultimate purpose is to care for my child, and make the world a better place for her and nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978522088646818858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154130182553490402006-07-28T16:43:00.000-07:002006-07-28T16:43:00.000-07:00BK,for what it's worth, I think you've done well h...BK,<BR/><BR/>for what it's worth, I think you've done well here.<BR/><BR/>I've asked my students this question many times, and while there are 'good' answers: the social contract (which ultimately exists to further personal security/happiness and in our country, the accumulation of wealth); innate human empathy (which not all of us possess equally); the persistence of our species...the fact is, Tenaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825416797769424875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154075030771747602006-07-28T01:23:00.000-07:002006-07-28T01:23:00.000-07:00Christian Philosopher...I think this is where you'...Christian Philosopher...<BR/>I think this is where you're going to have to help me and excuse my lack of formal philosophy training. <BR/><BR/>I'm having a really hard time parsing your arguments.<BR/><BR/>I THINK what you're saying is that atheism doesn't have a value system per se. It merely says that there is no God.<BR/><BR/>Which is something that I've noticed as well. Religions generallySiamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154048412113385782006-07-27T18:00:00.000-07:002006-07-27T18:00:00.000-07:00BK wrote: "First, its interesting that you are try...BK wrote:<B> "First, its interesting that you are trying to defend the idea that there is some philosophical warrant for being moral towards others from an atheist worldview -- even Carrier acknowledges that there isn't such a basis"</B><BR/><BR/>Can you cite a quote where he acknowleges this? I can't seem to find it. Rather I find plenty where he says that there is plenty reason to be moral Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154046012258428062006-07-27T17:20:00.000-07:002006-07-27T17:20:00.000-07:00BK wrote: "First, its interesting that you are tr...BK wrote: <B>"First, its interesting that you are trying to defend the idea that there is some philosophical warrant for being moral towards others from an atheist worldview -- even Carrier acknowledges that there isn't such a basis"</B><BR/><BR/>First, I don't know who this Carrier chap is. I've never heard of him before your post. If your characterization is accurate, he sounds like a Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154043762364490582006-07-27T16:42:00.000-07:002006-07-27T16:42:00.000-07:00"Oh, and just for the record, humanism doesn't dem...<B>"Oh, and just for the record, humanism doesn't demand anything of anyone. Humanism doesn't have any demands outside of the humans who hold the view because humanism isn't an entity."</B><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I didn't mean literally humanism standing up and saying something. I mean it figuritively like "honesty demands I speak up." <BR/><BR/>Why the legalese around here? I'm just trying to Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154043496639732802006-07-27T16:38:00.000-07:002006-07-27T16:38:00.000-07:00"We may enjoy living, but without God our lives re...<B>"We may enjoy living, but without God our lives really have no ultimate purpose. We’re all going to die sometime, and it ultimately makes no difference whether it happens today or in fifty years, or whether it’s by murder or old age."</B><BR/><BR/>You may not think so, but I disagree. My ultimate purpose is to care for my child, and make the world a better place for her and all the children Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154035181300343442006-07-27T14:19:00.000-07:002006-07-27T14:19:00.000-07:00'The point is simply that if God exists, then obje...'The point is simply that if God exists, then objective values exist, whatever they may be.'<BR/><BR/>Is it objectively wrong to allow abortion to exist?<BR/><BR/>Why does God allow abortion to exist?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154034935678379292006-07-27T14:15:00.000-07:002006-07-27T14:15:00.000-07:00I don't know if this helps, but can I say I'm happ...<B><I>I don't know if this helps, but can I say I'm happy to be alive? I enjoy it. I think it's good that we exist, okay? Beyond that, I can't really give you much more without more clarification. Sorry.</B></I><BR/><BR/>No, I totally understand what you’re saying. I held this attitude as well before I was Christian -- I enjoyed living and of course I didn’t want to die. But even though I enjoyednonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978522088646818858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154033724908700482006-07-27T13:55:00.000-07:002006-07-27T13:55:00.000-07:00Oh, and just for the record, humanism doesn't dema...Oh, and just for the record, humanism doesn't demand anything of anyone. Humanism doesn't have any demands outside of the humans who hold the view because humanism isn't an entity.BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1154033622723512622006-07-27T13:53:00.000-07:002006-07-27T13:53:00.000-07:00Bruce, So, we meet again, eh? A few thoughts: Firs...Bruce, <BR/><BR/>So, we meet again, eh? A few thoughts: <BR/><BR/>First, its interesting that you are trying to defend the idea that there is some philosophical warrant for being moral towards others from an atheist worldview -- even Carrier acknowledges that there isn't such a basis (as we shall see). <BR/><BR/>Second, the idea that we need each other to survive has not been the rule of BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01967809861892681780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153983972577600952006-07-27T00:06:00.000-07:002006-07-27T00:06:00.000-07:00Zok, I still don't understand this point:You wrote...Zok, I still don't understand this point:<BR/><BR/>You wrote<BR/><BR/>"Who cares if humans survive?"<BR/><BR/>I wrote<BR/>"Well, humans of course."<BR/><BR/>You answered "But why?"<BR/><BR/><BR/>I just can't make sense of that question. Why should humans care if we survive or not? Because we care. We like living, we don't like dying. I don't understand what's strange about that.<BR/><BR/><B>"Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153979865842783582006-07-26T22:57:00.000-07:002006-07-26T22:57:00.000-07:00BK's argument is that if something has no inherent...BK's argument is that if something has no inherent value, then there is nothing morally wrong with destroying something of no inherent value.<BR/><BR/>If BK would like to give me the dollar bills from his wallet, I can demonstrate that to be false. I will destroy something of no inherent value in itself, and I will have destroyed nothing of any value. How can he object to me destroying something Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153979142140823452006-07-26T22:45:00.000-07:002006-07-26T22:45:00.000-07:00'But that's different from having a philosophical ...'But that's different from having a philosophical system which holds that human life is, in and of itself, valuable regardless of what value I, as the observer, place on it.'<BR/><BR/>Why did God let 250,000 values disappear on 26/12/2006 when He could have saved each and every one of them?<BR/><BR/>Exodus 32<BR/><BR/>27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'EachSteven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153963499881531252006-07-26T18:24:00.000-07:002006-07-26T18:24:00.000-07:00zok:"Who cares if humans survive?"Bruce:Well, huma...<B><I>zok:<BR/>"Who cares if humans survive?"<BR/><BR/>Bruce:<BR/>Well, humans of course.</B></I><BR/><BR/>But why? What difference would it make if the entire human race was wiped out tomorrow, or if humans never existed to begin with? Or to take a less extreme example: What difference does it make if certain humans are treated poorly? BK wrote:<BR/><BR/><B><I>"Further, if the universe is the nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978522088646818858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153960692441802982006-07-26T17:38:00.000-07:002006-07-26T17:38:00.000-07:00"Who cares if humans survive?"Well, humans of cour...<B>"Who cares if humans survive?"</B><BR/><BR/>Well, humans of course.<BR/><BR/><B>"Like BK said, if humans are just the result of time and chance, what difference does it make whether they survive or not?"</B><BR/><BR/>Setting aside whether or not we are just the result of time and chance (I disagree with that), the difference is I am a <I>human</I>. So if humans don't survive, that includes Siamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153958572921639142006-07-26T17:02:00.000-07:002006-07-26T17:02:00.000-07:00Humans are important because humans need each othe...<B><I>Humans are important because humans need each other to survive. We are a social species. We cannot survive alone as individuals.</B></I><BR/><BR/>Who cares if humans survive? Like BK said, if humans are just the result of time and chance, what difference does it make whether they survive or not?nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978522088646818858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6363362.post-1153951042283730252006-07-26T14:57:00.000-07:002006-07-26T14:57:00.000-07:00Sorry, I missed a question, Godan: "Who decides w...Sorry, I missed a question, Godan: <B>"Who decides what those "rights" are? What if your "rights" interfere with my "rights"? Whose rights trump the other's?"</B><BR/><BR/>That's why we have a dialogue as a society. We do not live in a dictatorship, thankfully. We live in a democracy. In a dictatorship, Kim Jung Il decides what those rights are and which rights trump the others.<BR/><BR/>In aSiamanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05618964013804037165noreply@blogger.com